[Since this was posted various other groups started to campaign for the cancellation of the gig. I have commented on those campaigns in a subsequent post-AS]
On 25th June this year a concert will be held at a venue in north London by bands long associated with fascism and the far-right. The Slimelight in Islington is famous for its goth, darkwave, industrial, martial and electro-clash events and has built up an international reputation. People travel from around the world to London with the expressed intention of joining and visiting the membership only club.
The bands playing on 25th June are Sol Invictus, 6 Comm, Joy of Life and Freya Aswynn. It is well-known that Sol Invictus leader Tony Wakeford is an ex-member of the National Front, was a founder-member of fascist bands Death in June and Above the Ruins and continues to move in fascist circles, as this concert demonstrates. Andrew King, long-time collaborator with Wakeford and member of Sol Invictus, recently recorded a virulently racist version of David E. Williams' song 'Wotan Rains on a Plutocrat Parade' under the name Second Amendment with its lyrics; "monkey men... banging on the bongo drum, I'll pick them off one by one... you can kill the Aryan body but you can't kill the Aryan soul", and featuring sample declaring Hitler as the second coming.
Patrick Leagas aka Patrick O'Kill of 6 Comm was also a founder-member of Death in June and responsible for their use of Nazi imagery which he carried over from his previous band Runners From 84. He also made music with and shared a flat with hardcore neo-Nazi Gary Smith from No Remorse. (Smith also played in Wakeford's Above the Ruins, who donated a track to National Front benefit album "No Surrender Volume 1").
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| 6 Comm |
Gary Cary of Joy of Life has also collaborated with Death in June and While Angels Watch and has been produced by Douglas Pearce (DIJ). The band employ an abstracted swastika-like logo.
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| Joy of Life logo |
Freya Asswynn has worked with Leagas on many occasions, as well as with Les Joyaux De La Princesse, a French far-right band desrcibed as having "an increasingly crystallized, extreme right-wing ideology” by Christoph Frangeli in Datacide. She has a reputation for being aggressively racist, and was directly involved with a racist campaign against Black opera singer Willard White, organised by far-right magazine Scorpion in 1989. Here she is in an interview with right wing nutjob William B. Fox on the overtly racist, far-right America First Books website, indulging in a bit of racist musing:
"My immediate impression, what struck me immediately, is that the streets are so clean. Some parts of the subway are dirty, but the streets themselves are so much cleaner than in London. I also was pleasantly surprised to see a substantial amount of white people in New York. I didn't expect that. I expected New York to be pretty well dark."
The DJs for the event, working under the name of DJ Patientfront, are in fact Stefan Schwanke and Taro Torsay of Ironflame, who have released an industrial/neofolk compilation called Statement 1961 featuring tracks by fascist bands like Von Thronstahl, Grey Wolves, and Der Blutharsch.
The concert was organised by the mysterious Gaya Donadio, an Italian promoter (Hinoeuma the Malediction) and power electronics artist working under the name ANTIchildLEAGUE. She has worked with Suttcliffe Jugend, Genocide Organ, Kirlian Camera, Allerseelen and many others in a similar vein. She is also the woman behind Hagshadow Distribution who promote a lot of these bands. She is certainly one of the most prominent and active figures in the fascist power electronics and neofolk scenes. This comment in an interview with Vita Ignis: Corpus Lignum gives a clue to where she is coming from:
"I saw a documentary about a very orthodox sect of Jews; each of the women having nine children because they want to take over the planet. The same scenario happens with other cultures around the globe."
She appears to be suffering from that typical fascist affliction - anti-semitic paranoia.
The Slimelight, which is owned and directed by someone called Bernadette Murphy, has serious form when it comes to putting on fascist and neo-Nazi bands, and the underground music press has covered the subject on previous occasions. An article about a gig by American fascist bands Luftwaffe and Non (Boyd Rice) on 31st October 2007 titled 'Fascist Concerts at Slimelight, London' was posted by Mute on 30th October 2007, the day before the gig was due to take place. Indymedia published the same article a few days later on 11th November. The article flagged up the "cultural war of position" being prosecuted by these bands and the wider milieu, taking their cues from the political tactics of Italian fascists in the 80s and 90s. It also threw light upon Rice's well-documented history as a neo-Nazi, Social Darwinist and violent misogynist.
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| Boyd Rice |
One person who attacks Home in a particularly stupid and ill-informed way calls herself SnoW.White. She blames Home for the fact that she was unfortunately attacked at the concert, apparently by anti-fascist activists. Unable to grasp the fact that Home had not written the article and was not present at the gig, she blames him for labeling the concert a fascist event and thus indirectly encouraging anti-fascists to attend the gig, thereby causing her to be assaulted.
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| SnoW.White |
"*DISCLAIMER*
SnoW.Wwhite music is intended for entertainment purposes only. SnowW.Wwhite does not advocate any type of government, not even the most or least appealing ones. No ethnic, racial or other minority has been hurt, harmed, maimed or killed in the process of music making. ODDR!"
The concert has already caused anti-fascists to raise objections on Facebook, to Islington Council and elsewhere.The usual feeble denials will probably be made by the musicians involved. And if they can't be bothered you can be sure that armies of neofolk fans will there to defend them on the website barricades, in between getting their jollies listening to their heroes intone dreary visions for a fascist Europe. Anti-fascists everywhere should be making their objections loudly, with the certain knowledge that these closet fascists, despite their endless denials, are liars.
As Atari Teenage Riot put it, Hetzjagd Auf Nazis! -- Gorsefan
ReplyDeleteHmmm... a leaky peaky Wikipathetic bundle of dusty disingenuity, half-truths and downright lies. All to stop a gig that only a handful of goths will go to. Well, you WON'T stop the gig. Isn't it time that the Stewart Home School of Creative Smearing was shut down?
ReplyDeleteGaya Donadio may be many things but I wouldn't credit her as being particularly 'mysterious'. She's a concert promoter with some very confused ideas, and her own third rate power electronics outfit.
ReplyDeleteShe has also put on many artists who really don't have anything to do with this sorry pantomime nazi bollocks, or at least not beyond that which is implicit in agreeing to promoted by her. Depends how far you're prepared to take guilt-by-association.
She did this programme a while ago on Resonance FM as part of a series on noise music - you can take a listen if you think it's of interest. Being a podcast you have the advantage of being able to skip through most of the music.
http://southwarknoise.blogspot.com/2009/09/part-2-playlist-archive-by-gaya-donadio.html
May I just say that having been involved with 'anti-fascism' for over 25 years, while most (but NOT all) of those mentioned in that piece above are nazis and/or nazi apologists, Gaya Donadio most certainly IS NOT one. She does have some rather, ahem, 'ultra libertarian' ideas about 'freedom of speech' and suchlike (which I personally think is a load of crap) and has promoted some dodgy Harr Flick tribute acts at her clubs at the past (which she has publicly renounced) but as is always the case with pieces like this, if you erroneously start accusing people who aren't nazis of being so it only serves to reduce the credibility of your position when it comes to the deserving targets.
ReplyDelete@ elwar — That's the problem: there aren't really any deserving targets on this website. Not any more. This site is 15-20 years past its sell-by date.
ReplyDeleteTo reiterate the above two posts: Gaya Donadio isn't a nazi by any stretch of the imagination, and calling her one makes this blog seem increasingly like a failed attempt at trolling.
ReplyDeleteThe Grey Wolves aren't nazis either - their music and attitude is pretty corny and cliched in my view but as individuals they've got their hands more dirty in active anti-capitalist situations than anyone else who wtites here I would wager.
@ Elwar:
ReplyDelete"if you erroneously start accusing people who aren't nazis of being so it only serves to reduce the credibility of your position when it comes to the deserving targets.'
I don't see where Cavanagh accuses Donadio of being a Nazi. He instead says "She is certainly one of the most prominent and active figures in the fascist power electronics and neofolk scenes" and quotes her being casually racist. To me he is suggesting that she is responsible for promoting fascist groups rather than directly accusing her of being fascist. Nowhere does the word "Nazi" appear in that paragraph about Donadio.
Pointing out a racist comment she has made in an interview seems reasonable given the context of the article. Or maybe you don't think banging on about an orthodox Jewish sect wanting to take over the world through a breeding programme is racist.
@ not a fuckin nazi:
ReplyDeleteAgain Cavanagh does not call Grey Wolves Nazi, he calls them fascist. If they are not fascist why do they choose to name themselves after a fascist organisation:
Wikipedia:
The Idealist Youth (Turkish: Ülkücü Gençlik), commonly known as Grey Wolves (Turkish: Bozkurtlar), is an ultra-nationalist, neo-fascist youth organization. It is accused of terrorism and infiltration of European policy. According to Turkish authorities, the organization carried out 694 murders between 1974–1980.]
Hello Kids,
ReplyDeleteTaro Torsay speaking.
Funny seeing my name mentioned again on the internet, especially since I have already and ultimately left the music business in 2004 and nowadays rather enjoy burning my fat 51 yers-old-belly in the spanish sun than deejaying at Neofolk gigs in rainy Great Britain.
Still it's very funny to see my ex-partner Stefan Schwanke being linked with fascism. This statement would in fact provoke the biggest laughter in Berlin and Germany in general where he's been friends with countless rather leftwing orientated, anarchist and apolitical musicians, organizers, etc. since about 25 years.
He's worked with bands like Test Dept. e.g. - whom even even you guys should easily recognize as not being the least fashist-friendly.
Anyway, the love for experimental music and arts is what kept us both busy in many different music scenes and we never waisted too much time with political approaches to an Art Form which music definitely is. Politics should be an issue in everybody's lives but it has no place in experimental music evenings.
Almost 30 years have passed since Whitehouse published their tongue-in-cheek 'Struggle for a new Right' statement in Data magazine which got all you worried self disclaimed antifasicst warriors in hyper red alert mode back then and - what has happened since then? No, those bands have not taken over the music universe, they have not brainwashed a single innocent teenager into becoming evil fashists. NOTHING has happened - and nothing will happen. As someone mentioned earlier in this discussion, this gig, like hundreds of similar gigs before will just attract the same 100 dedicated followers that turn up three times a year at different european spots and for the rest of the time just carry on record collecting, child raising, tax paying, and what not else, but certainly not burning asylum homes or crushing homeless people's heads.
Gaya Donadio? I've never met her in person but what I do remember from about 15 times ago is her organising gigs for dadaist swiss collective Schimpffluch Gruppe (dare calling them fasicst and be prepared for a true inferno) plus being involved with the Italian anarchist section of the Autonomous Astronauts. So, might it be that her as well, is rather interested in experimental music than in promoting a hidden secret evil political agenda? Just an idea...
Last not least, this obscure fan girl I first read about on your site - SnoW.White. "She is pretty typical of a lot of the fans of the scene in that she [...] dresses up like a fascist [...]". OMG, shall I laugh or shall I cry here? Before I left the scene it was never like that and I highly doubt those attending the night will have to witness more than one example of what you desribed in your eerie discription as the would-be Typical/average experimental music fan.
One last request: I sincerely hope you will be posting pictures of this facist rally here, so us old and fat couch potatoe antifascists can see the full horror we gladly escaped by not attending this dangerous event.
@ Taro Torsay,
ReplyDeleteI'm going to ignore most of what you said as it is pretty much the kind of obsfucation that I would expect from people involved with these genres and and the politics that surround them, and as I don't know you I can't comment one way or the other.
What I can say with certainty is that Ironflame, which I believe you were one half of, released a compilation that included contributions from Von Thronstahl, Der Blutharsch and Grey Wolves. I believe these bands to be unequivocally fascist. You can argue that point if you wish. It seems strange you have nothing to say on the subject. Because that's why I put your name in the article.
@Jack Spot - if the Sex Pistols aren't fascists, why did they sport swastikas and have a song proclaiming Belsen to be a gas? If Joy Division weren't fascists, why did they have songs like 'Walked In Line' celebrating dead Nazis and have a name commemorating a section of a concentration camp? If the Ramones weren't fascists then why did one of their songs begin 'I'm a Nazi baby I'm a Nazi yes I am, I'm a Nazi schatzi and I'll fight for the fatherland'?
ReplyDeleteTrev and DAP of the Grey Wolves did more frontline anti-poll tax actions than anyone I know and narrowly escaped imprisonment.
This whole website is clearly a twisted windup prank by some seriously sad internet warriors and if this means I'm no longer mates with Stewart Home and John Eden for saying this then so be it!
Far from exonerating what Taro Torsay refers to as 'the experimental music scene' (and let's be clear that we're only discussing a small but significant part of this scene here, and one with which the vast majority of serious experimental musicians and soundworkers would be horrified to be associated), he has pretty much provided an object lesson in how fascist entryism works. Anyone with a longstanding interest in 'experimental music' will, at various points, have rubbed shoulders with those who wish to take the rhetoric of power and submission further – the choice, as it has always been, is whether or not to counter the clannish appeal and contrived glamour of theatrical elitism by pointing out its disastrous implications in the 'real world'.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing in Cavanagh's original post that's materially inaccurate, and if Torsay is merely arguing for a 'safe haven' where 100 or so of the same people can harmlessly indulge their infantile totalitarian fantasies once a month, then he should say so.
Who is to say that Whitehouse's 'New Britain' phase was tongue in cheek? Certainly not William Bennett and Co, who have never let the disgusting and indefensible document Torsay mentions stand in the way of the international artworld adulation in which they now bask. It's simply never alluded to.... despite (or because of) its status as a virtual manifesto for a generation of spotty bedroom Moselyites.
ReplyDeleteWhy would going on anti-poll tax demos (or 'actions') mean that someone wasn't a fascist? Are you assuming that all fascists supported the poll tax? That's plainly silly, isn't it. Feel free to defend the Grey Wolves, but you are going not have to do a lot better than that if you hope to convince anyone.
ReplyDeleteElwar states: – "Gaya Donadio ....... has promoted some dodgy Harr Flick tribute acts at her clubs at the past (which she has publicly renounced)"
ReplyDeleteWhich acts has she renounced, and for what reason?
NotANazi wrote -- "This whole website is clearly a twisted windup prank by some seriously sad internet warriors and if this means I'm no longer mates with Stewart Home and John Eden for saying this then so be it!"
ReplyDeleteAgreed -- methinks we have been here before, especially with the anarchism = fascism thing, and the chasing around of faded pop stars of the 80's.
Something tells me Home and Eden are having a laugh at our expense again.
@James Cavanagh & Anonymous (great name by the way)
ReplyDeletewhether you like this or not, those artists being founders or offsprings in the post industrial genre, ARE part of the experimental music scene. And if the "vast majority of serious experimental musicians and soundworkers really would be horrified to be associated with them" then they would be a bunch of unappreciative assholes i'd say because all those laptop knob twiddlers are just reaping what they sowed for them, back in the eighties, when your arch enemy douglas perce could work at rough trade and record stores would stock whitehouse and leibstandarte ss/mb next to crass and rudimentary peni and noone taking being the least bothered with it.
before all the comforts of the internet they were the ones wo created the networks, ran mailorders and tape labels, were active in world wide mail art projects, etc.
they can look back onto a body of work they can be really proud of. and in germany for instance a lot of antifascists have left the path of google and cut&paste activism and taken the time to actually research the history and codes of post industrial music universe and talked to a lot of the artists they formerly flamed. what they were left with was a handful of provocateurs who ARE active in right wing circles - no doubt about that - but then hundreds of artists who - by solely just looking onto the image surrounding them and their releases - seemed to share the same agenda but then actually turned out to be as opposite as it goes. 'the owls are not what they seem' as david lynchonce said.
okay, here is a genre that seems to celebrate violence and totalitarism and mysoginism and sexism and what not. you don't get why they are doing this? fine. then just go looking for an artistic musical genre/scene that suits you more, start respecting they are hard working artists, who are keeping up the banner of an independent record/music market.
what i always questioned most about your 'concerned citizen' methods of bringing the gospel of antifascism into the world is your main weapon used ad nauseam is the 'guilt-by-association' "argumentation". still i wonder why you only use this 'method', "which "the vast majority of serious journalists and social workers would be horrified to be associated with" only where it suits you? why do i never see e.g. merzbow accused of being a nazi or fascist, even though he was on tons of compilations together with those artists you decided to label fascists?
and even when someone admits he has crossed an unhealthy line 20 or more years ago, it is you who deny him absolution. who are you? what makes you so superior? don't you have anything productive to do? something that actually gives something to the society, anything? what's the use in wading knee-deep in accusal and defamation and google and copy & paste all day long...? to prevent the world from a danger that only you paranoiacs can see?
speaking of guilt-by-associaltion, did i get this right, james? you were totally aware that Patientenfront is a social-anarchist collective and has nothing at all to do with Ironflame, the website & label and that you would never find me deejaying there - but you just 'had to' claim this so you had the possibility to namedrop 3 artists out of 34 (!) from our compilation 'Statement 1961'? by the way two of those bands are as far as it gets from being fascists and von thronstahl, well, back when we started the compilation project, there were voices who threatened us they would take care" that "no band like von thronstahl would end up being on the compilation and on stage of our record release festival". there you have the reason for including von thronstahl. no one will ever tell me what to do or what not. this is not kindergarten anymore. grow up for heaven's sake.
@ not a fuckin nazi:
ReplyDeleteAn excerpt of Joy Division's "They walked in Line" lyrics:
"All dressed in uniforms so fine,
They drank and killed to pass the time,
Wearing the shame of all their crimes,
With measured steps, they walked in line."
The song is so obviously casting the soldiers as guilty, morally weak and complicit in evil that it seems ridiculous to have to point it out. As for the Ramones, Joey Ramone was explicitly left-wing, and the Pistols were cartoonishly Anarchist. There was never any cultural ambiguity in these cases, they were clearly understood by the public (apart from you).
As for Grey Wolves, here is renowned fascist Troy Southgate in a review of their "Blood and Sand" CD:
"Their recordings - most of which have been released on cassette - are emblazoned with nationalistic insignia. These have included a white Celtic cross on a black background and the flash of action in a circle of unity, as used by Oswald Mosley’s British Union of Fascists."
Clear enough for you?
just for the record and as this is becoming a bit silly, despite having stupidly called their crap power electronics outfit after a Turkish fascist group, Grey Wolves , the act, are very clearly to anyone with any knowledge of them or their output - NOT FASCIST. Loads of bands have daft fascist influenced names (New Order...Spandau Ballet...A Certain Ratio...Joy Divsion etc etc) - doesn't mean they are always nazis.
ReplyDeleteDer Blutharsch on the other hand ARE and I sincerely hope Antifa get hold of their fat cunt singer and put a hammer through his face sometime soon.
The other act mentioned I do not know and as i have no interest whatsoever in this type of woeful music have no desire to investigate.
But i'm just saying as it DOES affect the credibility of your work when you describe acts who are not fascist the same way as acts who are.
As if anyone cares really.
the best thing about this site is that it has introduced me to some really wacky (though invariably utter garbage) acts and writers. I'm now off to check out this von thronstahl bunch who sound like they could provide some droll LOLz. I wonder if all the leather coated, bedsit dwelling 30 year old virgin neo-folk types check out this site just as I remember seeing Ian Stuart and some of his boneheaded mates in Housmans politely buying copies of Searchlight.
ReplyDeleteTaro Torsay seems to be labouring under the impression that 'experimental music' began with the first flick of the Power Electronics switch – and perhaps in his cosseted world of monocultural art, it did.
ReplyDeleteIt might surprise him to learn that there are generations of musicians and artists who are all too aware of the savage inequalities which keep the world divided, but have made a conscious decision NOT to "celebrate violence and totalitarism and mysoginism and sexism" as a means of challenging it. Indeed, this seems a remarkably perverse strategy, and one which leaves its proponents open to all manner of accusations, the poor, misunderstood lambs.
Oh, and the reason he gives for including Von Thronstahl on his compilation beggars belief. Giving a platform to fascists simply because "it's not the done thing" is the mark of a man (and a subculture) totally without principles, and the point at which perversity crosses over into imbecility.
well, 'Anonymous', if you would ever give a listen to what you battle against so hardly, you probably - or maybe not - would have rethought your accusation of having given von thronstahl a platform for spreading fascism; because their contribution to our compilation is a most innocent musical version of jacob and wilhelm grimm's fairy tale 'the wolf and the seven young kids' that would hardly serve as a target for any concerned fascist hunter. but maybe there's embedded hidden subliminals? with them fascist you never know...
ReplyDeletenow crawling back to my monocultural cave of power electronics, and musique concrete and avantgarde and kraut rock and noise rock and post industrial and post punk and cosmic musik and dark ambient and dark folk and acid house and tekkno and glitch and anarcho punk and and and...
Taro Torsay seems to miss the obvious point that the fascist creeps he provided with a platform (and that's more than one band) might have given him something 'innocent' but that would be precisely in line with 'new right' thinking about how to draw a broader audience into their fascist sewer. They aren't going to be explicit when they think they're in with an opportunity to reach out and draw in those who are not yet converted to some jackbooted creed. And no surprise either that Torsay hasn't included genres like grime and ragga in his monocultural list of likes.... Time for some historical revision?
ReplyDeleteAs Cullivan above with his fan boy claims about running into Ian Stuart, I doubt that this site has alerted him to much fascist garbage he wasn't already into.
And before this thread goes completely off point, let's not forget the post above is about a gig featuring the likes of Tony Wakeford - and there's plenty on this blog about his fascist involvements.
D'you know I think this site has attracted more interest in the gig than anywhere else. Stewart Home's 4000+ facebook followers all know about it now too. There'll probably be a good turnout that just turn up to see what all the fuss is about. Isn't all press good press? Fascists, anti-fascists, anarchists, communists. I feel like it's back in '80s. The fascist think everyone can go home and we all live happily ever after. The communists think that something Lenin said would take a year is still going to happen a century later. If some these bands have been burrowing in to a subculture near me for about thirty years, how come no one I know has even heard of any of them? I bet most people on this topic are between 45-55. Out of touch people. Even if you think it's a London thing it's still really old news. Fascism and communism are over. Are there any communist bands on/ and is there a who makes the communists site. They don't make themselves either. it's all dogma.
ReplyDeleteHmmm just seen Dave from the Grey Wolves tonight at a Skullflower gig in Manchester and mentioned this intriguing thread to him, fella didn't seem happy about being called a Nazi as pretty obviously he ain't, anyway plz carry on and enjoy your anal retentive fun ;)
ReplyDelete@Anon: OK, you win the award for the most banal comments this week. You have some guts though: if I had such boring, mainstream liberal opinions as yours I'd keep quiet about it for fear of embarrassing myself in public.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous,
ReplyDeletePerhaps you should tell your mate "Dave from Grey Wolves" that if he doesn't like the idea of being called a Nazi then perhaps he should refrain from doing such a good imitation of one. Dave's not too bright I'm guessing.
The Grey Wolves use extreme imagery from a variety of sources. I've not seen anything by them for about 15 years now but from memory they were overburdened with pictures of blokes with guns wearing balaclavas, as well as runes, the celtic cross etc.
ReplyDeleteBut they have also used imagery from the anarchist group Class War and reprinted material from the anti-fascist magazine Searchlight.
It's my view that they simply have an adolescent fixation with extremism per se. It's easy to see why people might misinterpret this, or why fascists like Troy Southgate might use the group to bolster his own agenda.
The group's lack of a cohesive ideology has meant that in the past they have distributed material by others who I do consider to be overtly fascist. Examples would include Michael Moynihan's Coup De Grace and the output of the AWB Recordings label including Terre Blanche.
http://www.discogs.com/label/AWB+Recording
The group's obvious arousal at the deaths of innocent people in terrorist atrocities is also remarkably stupid:
http://media.hyperreal.org/zines/est/articles/ctm.html
A lot of this was discussed some time ago in Brian Duguid's article "The Unacceptable Face of Freedom". http://media.hyperreal.org/zines/est/articles/freedom.html
People are free to disagree with the above, or add more information of their own. I think this is a better approach than saying that it's "obvious" that they are not fascists. It isn't obvious and the Grey Wolves have only got themselves to blame when people don't "get it".
As I believe the Wolves once said themselves - if you lie down with dogs you wake up with fleas.
Personally I have no desire to defend them, and I readily acknowledge that what I've written here is based on my knowledge of all this from many years ago.
@not a fuckin nazi
ReplyDeleteObviously I have not idea who you are but if you are genuinely bothered about remaining my friend, then drop me an email or give me a call. It seems a bit weird to bring it up in this fashion, though?
Very much agree with your take on Grey Wolves,John
ReplyDelete@Strelnikov. I think you were pointing at me. You think liberal s wrong then. So you re an extremist of some kind. Well, the thing is that my boring mainstream opinions aren't for or against this gig and that doesn't make me a fascist. Hitler or Stalin it s all the same. As long as my banal comments are read with your reactionary ones someone rational might get a view of how unimportant the gig is. I know few people who were communists but not any fascists. The communists i know talk as much rubbish as these bands are accused of doing. They think they know what's best for everyone else. I think you attacking this gig is as fascist as the people you are criticising. In a democracy everyone can have their say and it's you who is against that. Most people are clever enough to make up their minds about fascists and communists and thats because of democracy. The boring mainstream is made up of all the people who pay tax and try and live in peace while fascist and communists try and make us think like them. They have both been discredited over and over. If this gig was a racist problem then it probably wouldn't be allowed to happen especially in Islington. The gig will go on and the boring mainstream will do what it should do by ignoring it completely like if it was a gig of communist bands but I don't think there are enough communists who agree with each other to put on a gig are there.
ReplyDeleteGaya has been the sole person responsible for putting up acts with dubious political inclinations and downright fascist as well and time and again she manages to get away with it so on that alone one would say she is quite mysterious, a dog that barks but never bites!
ReplyDeleteWhen challenged she never responds or fights back, usually she relies on her little helpers to do the stand up for her, what a coward.
The following interview http://vitaignescorpuslignum.blogspot.com/2010/04/interview-with-gaya-donadio-ov.html is quite telling of the sort of contradictory and rather insane person she is, there is never any consistency to her arguments, it's a rant like one way conversation with visible signs of paranoia.
It's quite rich of her to state that "Some tribes in London only breed to have the welfare benefits. Do we need more vampires? NO. " considering that for the last 23 years she has lived in London, 17 of those she has survived on state benefits and lived in council rented accommodation, courtesy of the tax payer just like her best friend Gugliermo who never did a days work in his life, fucking hypocrite parasites!
Gaya is nothing but total scum.
"but I don't think there are enough communists who agree with each other to put on a gig are there."
ReplyDeletehahahaha. You idiot. You forget about things like Rock Against Racism, which mobilised many thousands in opposition to racism and fascism, and all organised by (in that particular case) Trotskyists. Similar attempts by the left - Communist, Anarchist and the like - have been similarly successful. Someone like you, I suppose, would have been sitting on the sidelines while other people actually did something to oppose fascism, reading your copy of the Daily Mail and complaining about extremism.
"If this gig was a racist problem then it probably wouldn't be allowed to happen especially in Islington"
Again, you are an idiot. This gig will take place at Slimelight, a venue situated only yards away from chapel market, which had one of the biggest and most notorious weekly fascist paper sales for many years... all allowed by the council. These public sales - like those at Brick Lane, a short walk away, which Tony Wakeford has been known to attend - all took place quite openly and with the permission of local authorities. They only way the Fascists could be driven out was by anti-Fascist activists.
@Strelnikov — "Public sales - like those at Brick Lane . . . which Tony Wakeford has been known to attend..." Come on, enough of this. He attended them almost 30 YEARS AGO. I think you mean "Had (long ago) been known to attend." You and yours may have, for whatever reasons, some deep-seated grudge against Wakeford & Co., but don't descend to such disingenuous depths. It does your credibility no good at all.
ReplyDelete"is known to have attended" will do.
ReplyDeleteOne of the Anonymouses above asks which acts Gaya Donardio has renounced, and why. This is an interesting question which has not been answered, as it would give us a good idea of the kind of acts that she considers to be 'dodgy'. Are these acts which she has promoted and since denounced (after making money out of)?
ReplyDeleteSorry Taro but you're wrong about Rough Trade.We used to take great pleasure in visiting the shop and defacing all the New European and Whitehouse albums with stickers saying 'Join the Nutty Fairy party' and other childish but funny slogans. Not much of a protest, but it might have made a few impressionable kids think twice and we never did get to talk to management despite repeated pleas to discuss the way that the shop was going downhill from the Geoff Travis days. It wasn't made public knowledge that Douglas Pearce and Wakeford worked there until years later, but it explains a lot. Lpndon punks aren't stupid, for fucks sake it was even in Private Eye that Death in June were dangerous!
ReplyDelete@John Eden: excellent and well considered post, however i'd say that rather than piss-insects like Troy Southgate "(using) the group to bolster his own agenda" it's a matter of his ilk trying to shoehorn any acts who come out with dumb ass infantile crap like Grey Wolves have done into his 'scene' , much as I recall in RAC publications and Bulldog they would try to convey the idea that everyone from The Skids to Spandau Ballet, Sparks to the Angelic Upstarts were NF supporters and 'racial nationalists' . All a rather laughable attempt to try to present themselves as more paltably mainstream and with a wider demographic of support and ambassadors; a task you rightly say facilitated all the easier by the infantile transgresive/industrial iconography Grey Wolves and many acts still continue to utilise. Hopefully Dave of Grey Wolves will be along himself to state his case , and likewise Ms Donadio.
ReplyDeleteLOL
ReplyDeleteLes Joyaux De La Princesse are little more than a historical re-enactment society, they also happen to make beautiful music and overwealmingly keep their mouths shut.
It's interesting to see Snowie (SnoW.White) in the same article as Gaya...i remember very well how much Gaya used to resent Snowie's growing popularity on the's neo-folk scene. They have never been close friends at all despite Snowie attendance to Gaya's events but as soon as Snowie released her first CD Gaya was so jealous that she actually wrote the song "Big Fat Arse" as a mockery of Snowie's physical size.
ReplyDeleteGaya's was only too happy that Snowie came to her defense (when she was exposed on Meta Mute/Indy Media as she never defends herself- get's the iditos to do it for her). Later on she even had Snowie performing at one of her events at the Candem Underworld.
Snowie if you ever read this, don't be a fool and think that Gaya's is your mate, she just used you as she uses everybody else.
Valerio
Sounds like there's something awfully personal between you and Gaya. Are you sure this is the right forum to air your differences with her "Valerio"?
ReplyDelete@ Taro Torsay:
ReplyDelete"you had the possibility to namedrop 3 artists out of 34 (!) from our compilation 'Statement 1961'?"
I mentioned the three bands on the compilation because I consider them to be pushing a far-right agenda. Numbers have nothing to do with it, it is their presence on the compilation that I wanted to point out. Let's not argue about Von Thronstahl and the nature of the recording they contributed. They are Von Thronstahl for fuck's sake!
"Patientenfront is a social-anarchist collective and has nothing at all to do with Ironflame."
Well perhaps you should have a word about them using your website as a contact link in the advert for the gig at Slimelight.
"even when someone admits he has crossed an unhealthy line 20 or more years ago, it is you who deny him absolution. who are you? what makes you so superior?"
So now you feel the need to defend Tony Wakeford as well. The reason I mentioned his membership of the National Front in the past is that I don't believe him when he claims: "I have no connection with, sympathy for, or interest in those ideas nor have I had for around 20 years." Wakeford was still selling his Above the Ruins ep "Songs of the Wolf" on his website when he made this statement. He has Andrew King in his band, and as this gig shows he is quite happy to be promoted alongside the likes of Aswynn and Leagas. He still inhabits the same cultural position he always did.
I am interested in the way you describe Wakeford as having "crossed an unhealthy line 20 or more years ago". In what way do you think Von Thronstahl or Der Blutharsch for example have NOT "crossed an unhealthy line"? And how do you defend promoting bands that are overtly fascist? If you have some sympathy with their political views why not come out and say so instead of being so coy? The arguments you have made here would be a lot more cogent if you did.
'Anonymous' (though clear who you are i don't believe in 'outing' people's identities on forums) - It is a bit worrying you appear to still have a fixation with Gaya. And a bit infantile that you're resorting to spuriously shit-stir animosity between her and Snowie. Still, you're social skills were never that developed and at least you aren't turning up at her work and door any more like a sad fuck.
ReplyDeleteNone so bitter as the (would be) lover (or in your case, sad obsessed stalker) spurned, eh? Your contributions are personal and don't really add anything to this debate. And i'd be the first to say Gaya SHOULD explain her position and renounce the dubious noe-folk acts she has put on. Till then, get a life. And a decent haircut.
Here is a charming little post from SnoW.White left on the Slimelight online forum discussing the incident mentioned by Cavanagh when someone turned up at the club dressed as Hitler:
ReplyDeleteSnoW.White: " i am also german and i love the SS uniforms and there are clubs where people wear uniforms occasionally even with swastikas... the guy in question has been many times at slimelight, his uniform and himself do not look particularly like hitler at all and maybe less noticed were the guys who looked like the hitler youth sporting the 'totenkopf'... why dont you relax, simply wearing a uniform doesn't make you a mass murderer. :wink:"
(http://www.slimelight.net/Sportal/forum/archive/index.php/t-192.html)
You can see why Wakeford et al chose the Slimelight for their gig. It attracts just the right kind of punter for their particular brand of shitty fascist music.
You are aware that for DECADES vast numbers of misguided cretins have worn fascistic uniforms or Blood & Honour skinhead chic at fetish and gay clubs? In my - and the opinion of many others - it is at best moronic, at worst offensive, but , no doubt disappointingly for those who post on this forum, the jodpur and jackboots Marilyn Manson clones and Old Compton St muscle Marys in their Nicky Crane chic are - in general - unlikely to be swelling the ranks of the far right any time soon. Out On Tuesday did a show on this phenomena in 1990. And , yes, I know all about Mr Crane as I used to see him at the London Apprentice, and know that lots of nazis are gay or closet queens. I am simply stating that you are not doing your cause any good by labelling every ex-goth who can squeeze their expanding gut into a grey tunic a nazi.
ReplyDeleteLibel, defamation and illiteracy
ReplyDeleteBefore I start, please let me point out that the author of the above article has called me semi literate. This is a touch rich coming from a person who includes spelling mistakes in his very badly researched article. Please be a little more factual and a little less personal and stop throwing stones while you are sitting in a glass house. Also please bear in mind that I am actually a German national. We do have a grading system at school and I passed my exams with As and Bs in both German and English. This should be sufficient proof that I am in fact both literate and bi-lingual.
To come to the official part of my post, the following is an official statement from me, as artist SnowW.Wwhite:
The article that focuses on my person starting by my artists name "SnowW.Wwhite" certainly did not take the time to research this very well as I have pointed out on several official occasions that the name "snowwhite" was given to me as early as primary school for the fact that my hair is black and I have an unusually pale complexion.
This nickname was then modified to avoid confusion about my identity as artist and internet chatter as the nickname snowwhite often appeared already. To read anything more into the nickname is purely infantile and as said before, badly researched.
Equally shoddily researched was the quote "seig heil my little prettys" as it was not posted by me, this was another person who's only affiliation to me was that he liked to go to the same club. Let me add that he is a Goth and far from being politically active and also dislikes neofolk anyway.
I knew instantly that this quote was not a part of my post as I know how to spell said historic German greeting. Remember, I am German and I also know how to spell "my little pretties".
Mrduckula: 07-02-2006, 01:01 AM Slimelight forum post #379:
"Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrduckula
and i thought hitler was dead...... how stupid am i?
p.s please dont answer.
seig heil little prettys"
My reply was as follows:
snoww_wwhite on Slimelight forum post #381 07-02-2006, 06:31 PM:
"maybe he is like the terminator v2 and currently re-assembles himself with his testicle in the albert hall?"
I think my answer illustrates quite impressively just how seriously fascist I might be and how the serious the tone of conversation was.
If this is too hard to grasp then I would like to suggest to the writer of the original article to improve his literacy and comprehension skills urgently.
Also rather impressive is the fact that the author of the article has to scan 5 year old forum posts in order to find something/anything that would aid his pretty lousy attempt to damage my reputation or character. Also worth consideration is that the original forum post was about the pros and cons of Slimelight dress code, in which I also stated that I love uniforms but it should not be mistaken for a political expression that I only ever go to Slimelight to listen to music and "dance like a complete idiot".
ReplyDeleteSlimelight is and has been a goth and related genre club, the club hosts a whole spectrum of events, music, exhibitions and benefits including non profit organisations. Slimelight’s policy on non judgemental and open mindedness is second to none and puts so called liberal venues to shame with it great sense of tolerance and acceptance.
So his idea of semi literacy stems from a grammar mistake I made 5 years ago on a forum post, if this person researched me then he would know that I am German and occasionally, especially late at night my grammar is a little less than perfect. Again this is a personal insult and I have all intensions to take this further.
All in all this is not only a libellous posting; it is also putting me as a person in danger of further attacks. I would like to point out that the last attack was brought to the attention of Islington police.
So my point is that the domain under which my face is being published is a) infringing on copy right, b) libellous and c) inciting hatred against several people including me.
In other words, you have gone a step too far, please retract your libellous mutterings and issue a public apology.
Thank you,
snowW.Wwhite (artist name, real name withheld for security reasons)
@ SnowW.Wwhite.
ReplyDeleteBit sensitive about the name aren't you? I don't see any comment by Cavanagh reading anything into your name.
You chose to ignore the comment I posted that you made on the Slimelight forum about your fondness for SS uniforms. What's that all about?
The thing is if you types will insist on going to gigs by fascist musicians and dressing up in Nazi uniform people will start to ask questions. You can't seriously be surprised when you suddenly appear on an anti-fascist blog like this.
Unfortunately, the second part of my statement has not been posted yet. I urge the owner of this blog to post this as well.
ReplyDeletesnowW.Wwhite
Jack Spot,
ReplyDeleteI do not think that I either owe you any explaination as to where I go and what I wear or indeed what type of designer uniforms I like.
In fact, you owe me an explaination as to why you selectively reprint parts of an ongoing discussion, which in parts is over 5 years old. Note that the parts you post do not reflect either the topic correctly nor does it take into account the occasions were I said that to assume that the dress sense has got anything to do with political expression was tremendously stupid.
Again you and the author of this blog pride themselves as being informative and to publically expose so called fascists and nazis.
If you now claim nobody said this, it is implied, may I point to the domain name!
The very last thing I say on this matter here is that I protest against this type of internet witch hunt and bullying and that your methods are equal to a ceratin group of extreme right wing thugs in the early 1930ies in Germany.
Please do not resort to book burning and destruction of "entartete Kunst". My family suffered enough and got payed damages following the 3rd Reich as 2 of my relatives were in fact a) inmates of a concentration camp and b) on the Gestapo list for investigation.
My first holiday as a child was financed by those payments of the German government. (Yes, they took that long in the hope that the survivors would die in the mean time).
In all, I think it is time that I am left alone to explore my (possibly very strange) fetishes and to enjoy the art I enjoy without being questioned by the (this time) left wing Gestapo once again.
snowW.Wwhite
I forgot to mention one last thing:
ReplyDeletemy uniforms are fetish wear, I once appeared in a German fetish magazine wear this. I also appeared in a book entitled Gothic also wearing said festish uniform.
To the commisars: The shirts are from either Asda, or M&S, skirts from H&M, Asda or M&S, Footwear: fetish outlet, Corset: Axfords fetish wear.
None of it resembles any known female german uniform, it is what it is - fetish wear.
It is however based on a uniform designed by Hugo Boss. If you look around lastest fashion, you will see a lot of influences by Hugo Boss.
Also my fetish uniforms were taken as insipiration by a well known designer who based a whole collection (loosely) on this.
And yes, all of it in the safe knowledge that I am everything but a stick thin model.
snowW.Wwhite
As ever the usual excuses and failure to explain themselves satisfactorily from those idiots who support neo-folk.... SnowW.Wwhite addresses Jack Spot as follows:
ReplyDelete"Again you and the author of this blog pride themselves as being informative and to publically expose so called fascists and nazis. If you now claim nobody said this, it is implied, may I point to the domain name!"
The domain name and title of the blog obviously only points to the subject matter under discussion. There are posts here relating to, for example, Adorno and anti-fascist resistance to the Nazis. Clearly not everyone mentioned on the blog is assumed to be a nazi - and to make the claim that this is implied is to expose oneself as bereft of a defence for both neo-folk and those twerps who claim they dress up in nazi uniforms as a fetish (which makes them sad and pathetic, if not in all cases nazis).
As the author of the blog posted above notes: "Disclaimers, denials, it's all very familiar...." But none of it is at all convincing. Especially the ongoing attempts to turn any criticism of anyone into the claim they are a nazi (which in some cases is easy to rebut, in others it is attempted but doesn't necessarily work - Tony Wakeford and many of his National Front chums, for example, are fascists but not necessarily neo-nazis any more).
There are plenty of fascists who clearly aren't nazis (nazism is a specific type of fascism), and there are various sorts of fellow travellers of the far-Right (as well as some neo-folk fan boys and girls) who might plausibly claim not to be outright fascists.
However, as is pointed out above, Tony Wakeford was still selling his openly fascist Above The Ruins release when he issued a statement in 2007 claiming to have had nothing to do with those ideas for 20 years. That was not a plausible denial on Wakeford's part since his claim about a 20-year separation from this material was an obvious lie. Likewise, the Slimelight concert this blog is about is clearly a crypto-fash gig.
PART 1
ReplyDeleteSomeone brought this to my attention and here I’m.
I’m surprised this blog hasn’t been closed down yet. This is a Hate Blog.
This is got nothing to do with politics. Politics here are just an excuse to spread personal hate and inciting other to take violent actions against me and other people.
I’m not here to justify myself because there is no crime I have done or need to confess. I’m not here to defend or regret my actions.
James Cavanagh: She is certainly one of the most prominent and active figures in the fascist power electronics and neofolk scenes.
You mean the only one you have the pleasure or maybe better, the courage to attack?
I have never been part of any Nazi group in my entire life. I have never done fascist rallies at my gigs!!! So please, stop this. This is so unfair. You are discriminating against me trying to persuade people that I’m a very bad person so they can attack me physically – verbally – and via net. You are inciting people to hate and commit hate crime. This is not humanly right. This is disgraceful.
I have always believed in freedom of artistic expression. My organization provides a platform for artists to express themselves. I worked with people from all walks of life – colour – gender – religion – sex – marital status – disabilities – culture - I have never made any money out of what I do because is not about money or greed. This is my passion. I love the music and this has been my only interest throughout the years. There is no hate in my actions and people who are involved.
Many of the live actions I have organized took place at the Red Rose which was a local labour party office as well as a comedy club in Finsbury Park. Isn’t strange that they haven’t banned me from doing such events? The environment I have managed to create is one of the most diverse ever with bands and artists from the unconventional weird and extreme underground music culture. What I do its only about music – art and Freedom of Expression. There are no Politics involved.
More you want to ban art and freedom of expression more you end up making it a cult!
Slimelight is one of the oldest and most diverse venue in London and if not in the world. Slimelight has never been political, it is a club. Kids and grown up adults attend the venue to dance, enjoy the music, their friends and the wonderful atmosphere.
This comment in an interview with Vita Ignis: Corpus Lignum gives a clue to where she is coming from:
"I saw a documentary about a very orthodox sect of Jews; each of the women having nine children because they want to take over the planet. The same scenario happens with other cultures around the globe."
She appears to be suffering from that typical fascist affliction - anti-semitic paranoia.
No matter how deep you dig in, extracting phrases, words out of context from that interview to accuse me of anti Semitism. I guess you are having a lot of time in your hands and hate to do just that. You have to thank Channel 4 for the documentary I saw. It was scary to see this one as much as seeying Christians and other sects that do so many kids not for love but for the religion sake! My mother comes from a family of 11 kids. I could never understand why women were forced to breed like animals. What I said is linked to my project ACL – that covers the religious topics, women and patriarchal societies but obviously you only see what you want to see.
Gaya Donadio
Part 2
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said... Valerio
It's interesting to see Snowie (SnoW.White) in the same article as Gaya...i remember very well how much Gaya used to resent Snowie's growing popularity on the's neo-folk scene. They have never been close friends at all despite Snowie attendance to Gaya's events but as soon as Snowie released her first CD Gaya was so jealous that she actually wrote the song "Big Fat Arse" as a mockery of Snowie's physical size.
Gaya's was only too happy that Snowie came to her defense (when she was exposed on Meta Mute/Indy Media as she never defends herself- get's the iditos to do it for her). Later on she even had Snowie performing at one of her events at the Candem Underworld.
Snowie if you ever read this, don't be a fool and think that Gaya's is your mate, she just used you as she uses everybody else.
Valerio: Who gives you the right to insult me or anyone here?
Incredible to see the lies and childish invention that you have written here about the relationship I have with Snowwy. It is disgusting that someone could viciously think what you say. Trying to put two women against each other. This is rather low and cheap imagination. You could use your real name by the way - because we know who you are. Your hate is so off the topic that it is a clear mental issue you have got with me that goes dangerously far beyond the blog contents and what people are talking about here. This was your little sneaky chance.
Surely you haven’t damaged the relationship between me and Snowwy.
Actually, you have made it stronger.
Anonymous said...
It's quite rich of her to state that "Some tribes in London only breed to have the welfare benefits. Do we need more vampires? NO. " considering that for the last 23 years she has lived in London, 17 of those she has survived on state benefits and lived in council rented accommodation, courtesy of the tax payer.
fucking hypocrite parasites!
Gaya is nothing but total scum.
Who are you to call me total scam?
How dare you speak in my name pretending you know my personal details and my life? This is serious abuse. You have got your facts wrong about the years I work or I don’t work - etcetera. I m not a parasite I have never been. I have always given more than taken.
It proves that twisting these words against me you are randomly finding anything to get at me. If you only knew what ACL concept is about you would know that is no way attacking the working class or people who have difficult lives. The contrary. I’m well aware of social problems and the devastating effect that poverty can cause. I come from a working class family.
ACL concept includes breeding and overpopulation of the planet – the dilapidation of mother earth resources - the patriarchal society we live in – religions enslaving women – conflict in society and dysfunctional families – disinformation - the effect that non breeding women have in society – BUT in any case what ever I say here might be changed and thrown at me again. So I really can’t see the point to explain or have a democratic/civil conversation any further. I also don’t have the time.
Gaya Donadio
You guys with same old stuff - "We just like to wear Nazi uniforms", "The real fascists are the left"..
ReplyDeleteDo you think you can just repeat this drivel over and over again until people believe it? No one with an ounce of critical thinking skill would pay attention to your pathetic deflections.
If you don't want people thinking you're advocating fascism on some level, don't wear and display fascist symbols, don't fetishize fascist uniforms, and don't have bands with known fascist ideals play at your freaking club!
Seriously, the juvenile mentality of the people in this scene amazes me. Whether or not you have been member of a right wing organization, if you are dressing up like a fucking Nazi on a regular basis, and doing masturbatory rune magic on a totenkopf with Odin's beard or whatever- expect to be called on it for christ's sake and stop whining when people question your choices of attire, I imagine you guys love the attention anyway.
Anonymous Lurker #213
Part 1: With respect to Smink (above), I think that his is a very reasonable and accurate perspective on a complex issue which has been fiercely debated within the gay community for many years eg. the vogue for some gay men to identify outwardly with the traditional symbols of their oppression.
ReplyDeleteHowever – and I speak only for myself, but SUSPECT that many who post here would agree – it's unfair to suggest that there's any pleasure to be taken in raising consciousness about fascist intervention in culture. The suggestion that this is an unfounded, indiscriminate or overzealous 'witch hunt' is a central plank in the defence of those who refuse to accept the evidence of their own eyes and ears, OR have a vested interest in enabling such entryism. Both of these groups are well represented on this forum, and there's plenty of tacit AND explicit acknowledgement throughout that a concerted cultural war is, indeed, being waged through the medium of music and associated arts. Rather than issue blanket accusations, I'd suggest that most posters here are actually quite specific in their concerns. There's a general consensus that dressing up in emulation of a genocidal regime is, as he says, "at best moronic, at worst offensive", but that wouldn't in itself be worthy of a multiple page blog. Rather, most posters take this in tandem with the constant, and orchestrated, veiled allusions in lyrics, in interviews, on artwork and on stage to an illogical, barbaric and nightmarish 'low point' in human development which SOME would seek to revive. NOT always veiled, and all-too frequently ambivalent, it must be said.
Part 2: Some theoretical questions for those who continually deny that there is a pan-European and anti-democratic philosophy being systematically pushed might be:
ReplyDeleteCould there exist the possibility of a 'left-leaning' or humanistic strand of neo-folk? (If this is greeted with snorts of derision, we might ask ourselves why.) Must all references to militaristic themes be couched in 'heroic' terms? (The pity and the terror of war, or the vulnerability of combatants are so seldom expressed as to be jarring anomalies.) Why is the demographic of this subculture NECESSARILY and almost exclusively white European? (If it's a mere music form which can be accessed and adopted at will, then why must this be a foregone conclusion, given the territories now covered....... or is the scene still in thrall to the Whitehouse 'manifesto' for a reductionist 'anglo saxon' music mentioned by a poster above?
It is ridiculous to call this a 'hate site'. The posts here report news and analysis of the fascist and far-right presence in various subcultures. It is perfectly proper for people to write about these things, and it is perfectly proper too that, if you are criticised, you be allowed to reply, as both Gaya D & snowW.Wwhite have done.
ReplyDeleteIt might be useful if people focussed on the real issues here, about how ideas with their roots in the far right have been reconfigured to work in modern culture.
snowW.White: in regard to your specific point about your image and the picture of you, since you are not widely known, and since I have no intention of inciting anyone to threaten you in any way whatsoever, I have modified the image so that, I hope, you are unrecognisable from it.
Regarding what you say about your being an innocent interest in fetish, etc., I hope you find this article by Susan Sontag on fascist Aesthetics interesting and useful. Without evidence to the contrary, I see no reason not to accept what you say about your motivations and interests, even if I disagree with you about their significance in the wider scheme of things.
I think it absurd for you to represent what you do as somehow in the tradition of what became labelled as entartete Kunst (namely, the modernist art of the expressionsist, new objectivity, dada, futurism and so on). Simply to refer to these things stylistically does not put you in those artistic traditions. And, if you are interested at all, no one has called for any style of music or art to be censored or proscribed in any way. I find both neo-folk and power electronics to be equally tedious in terms of their aesthetics (basically, they are neon-lit versions of The Doors - who were an awful group to start with). Tastes differ, of course, and I have no problem with my friends who disagree about this and find something of merit in, eg., some neo-folk. But all of this is quite distinct from the question of how fascist (and, eg., revolutionary traditionalist, Evolian) ideas are being spread in these milieus.
As I've said several times before, I find it quite boring to speculate about 'who is a fascist', as it just produces endless streams of accusation and denial. It is more interesting to look at what people say and do, and to work out the significance of that irrespective of what the individual artists says about their motivations (which are blurry, and can easily be lied about and misrepresented anyway).
There may be flaws in some of the contetn of this article - and some of the writing veers towards tabloid, unlike other pieces on here - and the occasional shoddy mistake (calling their own contributor Christoph Frangeli and not Fringeli, for example) - and maybe focusing on the minutiae of some of the sadder fashfashion victims an missing some up-to-the moment genuine politicos (they ARE there). I´m sure Cavanaghs heart was in the right place - its just that he (and hthe owner of the site) should show a little more attention to detail
ReplyDeleteBUT
Overall they are right in what they are doing - especially if it does have impact beyond this debate (and I hope it does).
The UK needs to get its head out of the sand and address the stuff thats happening abroad here in Europe - major countries of the EU are turning to the Right and - far from negating what is oft called a small insignificant movement this is an important part of a 'whole' that is getting bigger rapidly.
as far as I am concerned - there is NO statute of limitations on these people and their acitivities - especially if they themselves continue to wallow in their "past glories" and group together -
- granted, some aren't nazis but merely people who cynically maybe only give Nazis a platform because it pays the rent (Cold Spring, anyone?) - but the end result is the same whether they are nazis or not - if they want to consort to collaborate with fascist-types for whatever reason, then they should be prepared for flack coming in their direction - for 'collateral damage'.
Keep up the good work, all involved in helping Who Makes...
Anyone else think the greatest threat to Europe is not from the far right but dead center conservatism in power NOW? Take a peak at CDU Germany and the erosion of the welfare state; they ain't wearin' jackboots to crush the poor ...
ReplyDelete@ Jack spot - get your facts right. The Grey Wolves didn't name themselves after the Turkish far right paramilitary's of the same name. They took their name (in the early eighties) from their links to the early TOPY who used to wear Grey clothing / combat gear and have an interest in Wolves and Wolf behaviour. Hence their use of the name and the fact their are actual Wolves called Grey Wolves. Not very original maybe but it seemed very apt at the time. They chose the name BEFORE they were aware of the Turkish far right group.(remember, this was in those far off days before the internet, the tool which now gives anyone the power to become a smart arse, or so they think, by doing a lazy trawl through search engines and wikipedia to come up with links and connections that were'nt there at the time). Anyway, they eventually became aware there was a Turkish extremist group using the same name but as they were not Turkish or of the far right, they stuck with the name. You could have easily thrown in the accusation that they named themselves after nazi uboats, also known as "the grey wolves" if you wanted another lie / innaccuracy to put up on this witchhunt of a blog.
ReplyDeleteHey Jack, get over it, we forgive you. It's ok to get your facts wrong now and then, just have the balls to admit it. Anarchy and Peace. Now get the beers in.
In reply to Gibbo - its a shame that the organ-grinders monkey had to come and say his piece - wherefor Padbury and Ward? has Ilse Koch got their tongues? - I accept that you may have named yourself after the saddoes who set their bodily fluids thru' the GPO to GPO as yes, the internet wasn´t there when the group formed - this is a point that I consider very relevant.
ReplyDeleteHOWEVER -
Ignoring the spotty teenager shock horror of much of Grey Wolves visual material
(confrontational musing it ain't - one-track serial killer atrocity wank fetish it is)
- I have no idea how long you were in the band for - but releasing material on Tesco Organization in 2003 (ex-TOPY wank boys - absolutely undeniably NAZIS ask Antifa, also ask the german police and the organisation that banned the crappy Death In June record)), linking to Old Europa Cafe - italian home to many nazi acts, also calling yourselves the BLACKSHIRT ORCHESTRA - errr, no internet again? fuck off!) linking to COLD SPRING - the numero uno fascist carrying label in the UK today,
Oh, and sharing a record with that little creep Wertham...
so, you say you aren't nazis - John Eden is a gent - I accept his word on your origins (see above) BUT he says pointedly "this is on his experience 15 years ago"
what do you have to say about the nazis you now like to hang about with?
what do you say about the nazis who you now make money from and make you money by distributing your records?
If Jack Spot made errors it doesn't mean he was in the wrong overall -
I think likely as you seemed to imply yourself that at best Grey Wolves have in the past been ill-thinking and stupid - and that on the strength of your piece above - though less self-scathingly.
Because of the way that you and possibly others in the industrial scene
have presented yourselves in an ambiguous way you think all are ambiguous but underneath essentially good - and, for example - anarchist and in no way nazi. I#ll ignore your crap about not being told what to do or being patronised on the GREY WOLVES website and do just that - because that seems to be what you need - less beer more engagement of the grey matter - wake up and see that the antinazis amongst us aren't the only people who think you are nazis - the nazis think that too! you are up there on their shelves alongside romper stomper' and àmerican history X`as useful centre-fold fantasy fodder.
@Gibbo: Not, initially, an unconvincing account of the origins of the 'Grey Wolves' name. But weren't the duo of Padbury and Ward also trading as 'The Blackshirt Orchestra' as long ago as 1986?
ReplyDeleteWhen did they switch from an interest in Carpathian wildlife, to plastering images of blaclava-clad gunmen over their releases, and penning numbers entitled 'Final Solution' and 'Final Moments Of 3rd Reich' (from 1988's 'The Prelude To Terror')?
Ex-drummer Gibbo comes across as a decent bloke, and there's no way of knowing whether he was involved with the band at this time, but he must admit that, given the band's 'cultural terrorist' approach, the discovery of a real-life fascist terrorist outfit of the same name must have been a happy coincidence.
Here's some text from the packaging of their 1992 release, 'Punishment':
"WE WILL NO LONGER SUBMIT TO A STATE WHICH IS BUILT ON THE SWINDLING IDEA OF THE MAJORITY. WE WANT A DICTATORSHIP. THE COUNTRY MIGHT IN SOME WAYS BE A CHILLIER, BUMPIER, LESS COSY PLACE – BUT INFINITELY MORE INVIGORATING.
ALL YOU NEED IS HATE. PUNISHMENT - THROUGH ALL THE CENTURIES FORCE AND POWER ARE TE DETERMINING FACTORS. ONLY FORCE RULES. FORCE IS THE FIRST LAW. SAY NO TO DEMOCRACY (x 18)"
Someone who made errors isn't wrong? Interesting. By that principle everything is possible. Walking on water for example. Or falsley accusing people of things they are not guilty of.
ReplyDeleteYou are creepy people.
@Gibbo: Not, initially, an unconvincing account of the origins of the 'Grey Wolves' name. But weren't the duo of Padbury and Ward also trading as 'The Blackshirt Orchestra' as long ago as 1986?
ReplyDeleteWhen did they switch from an interest in Carpathian wildlife, to plastering images of blaclava-clad gunmen over their releases, and penning numbers entitled 'Final Solution' and 'Final Moments Of 3rd Reich' (from 1988's 'The Prelude To Terror')?
Ex-drummer Gibbo comes across as a decent bloke, and there's no way of knowing whether he was involved with the band at this time, but he must admit that, given the band's 'cultural terrorist' approach, the discovery of a real-life fascist terrorist outfit of the same name must have been a happy coincidence.
Here's some text from the packaging of their 1992 release;
'Punishment'
"WE WILL NO LONGER SUBMIT TO A STATE WHICH IS BUILT ON THE SWINDLING IDEA OF THE MAJORITY. WE WANT A DICTATORSHIP. THE COUNTRY MIGHT IN SOME WAYS BE A CHILLIER, BUMPIER, LESS COSY PLACE – BUT INFINITELY MORE INVIGORATING.
ALL YOU NEED IS HATE. PUNISHMENT - THROUGH ALL THE CENTURIES FORCE AND POWER ARE TE DETERMINING FACTORS. ONLY FORCE RULES. FORCE IS THE FIRST LAW. SAY NO TO DEMOCRACY (x 18)"
@Anon: "Someone who made errors isn't wrong? Interesting. By that principle everything is possible."
ReplyDeleteActually, what Taildragger said was; "If Jack Spot made errors it doesn't mean he was in the wrong overall"
which is obviously, trivially true, and not at all 'creepy' to anyone who isn't desperately trying to confuse the issue.
....thanks for your verbal slapping of that human midge above, strelnikov - but this particular 'anonymous' is going to find out just how creepy - how someone can STEEL into your life and then your nerves are just WIREd because you know that you have gone too far: the Abyss is looking back at you and now isn't content to just look from afar but take a closer look - a much closer look - and maybe looking won't be enough - maybe a prod or a poke - if only you'd just got on with your work in that office, today, anonymous, or if you'd taken a day off - gone down to the pub instead and got yourself in a state best described as four SHEETs to the wind - you wouldn't have slid quite so far down the shit-shute that's become your destiny since you've chosen to throw caution to the wind and reveal to all to true extent of your moral vacuity. I am going to really enjoy taking you down because, by fuck, you deserve it.
ReplyDeleteYou made a good post ATTRITION because it shows just how intimidatory and ultimately batshit you people are. Carry on.
ReplyDeleteThanks for your invite , anon - theres more than one of us 'people' here - don't paint all 'here' with the same brush although I know that being a racist HARSH generalisations come second nature to you ...you just got the wrong one ... some of the others really wouldn't agree with this 'one' and I respect them for it... I hope, of course I got the right 'anon' - certainly you fit the bill by being petty, stupid and all the rest but I think I did - its the one who spends all day at his richly rewarding job - let see - theres more than one 'a' , theres one or two 'u's depending on how personal we're getting...
ReplyDeleteThis site is great.
ReplyDeleteWacky scene. Wacky folks :)
Hello folks I really rate this web site! I am really glad that this issue of the Slimelight concert has been brought up as I noticed that this event was going to happen previously.
ReplyDeleteI am writing to alert 'Strelnikov' &co to an event which is happening at the Camden Roundhouse on Friday the 13th of May. There is a Mute Records showcase called Short Circuit happening.
The featured artists include Moby, Plastikman, Nitzer Ebb, Cabaret Voltaire and Throbbing Gristle.
However also Non is on the lineup which I believe is one of these crap Martial Industrial bands which I think has also worked with Boyd Rice.
I think that if there is an existing problem with this band with regard to fascistic agitation then people should be informed.
The event is supported by:
The Arts Council
Camden Council
The Wire magazine (for people with beards)
Mute Records
Spotify.
@ I Like Techno
ReplyDeleteWell spotted. Non is in fact Boyd Rice's industrial band. This is a quote from his own website (copyright Boyd Rice 2010):
"Rice sparked further controversy through public flirtations with "Nazi" aesthetics and fascist ideology, a flaunted disregard for political correctness, and an espousal of antisocial doctrines such as Satanism, Social Darwinism and elitist misanthropy."
The guy is an asshole. A visit to the Wikipedia entry on him should convince most people of this.
Mute and all the musicians and sponsors involved should be ashamed of themselves for having anything to do with him.
This is a great website. Keep up the good work.
Very true.
ReplyDeleteWonder of the folks at Mute know about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsKbbIybtVM
It also appears that Boyd Rice has released an LP with Death in June about five years ago.
ReplyDeleteMute boss Daniel Miller makes vague reference to Boyd Rice's reputation in the current issue of The Wire, and describes himself as "a supporter and defender" adding "Not that I feel he needs defending"....
ReplyDeleteI was a bit disappointed to read this to be honest.
It's awful that a label boss will stand behind one of his artists, isn't it? If it's so disapointing to you then don't buy anything from Mute. As the saying goes, don't like it, don't fucking buy it!
ReplyDelete@Anon: Yeah, I find that's the best way to deal with people who cover for fascists; don't argue with them, oppose them or expose them, instead you can boycott their tatty, third rate CDs... which you had no interest in buying in the first place.
ReplyDeleteCome to think of it, there's a plan there for republicans - overthrow the monarchy by not buying Prince of Wales biscuits.
Brilliant. Thanks for your input.
Point taken Strelly. Richard should start a blog and try to moan Mute out of existence instead.
ReplyDeleteAn idiot who created a highly influential and massively successful label on so many levels one wouldn't even know where to begin vs a bunch of knowitall lefties whinghing on a blog. I know who my money is on.
ReplyDeleteIf Rice matters that much to you then why don't you and your mates head over to The Roundhouse and try to stop the event? Put your money where your mouths are for a change!
@Anon: OK, we get it - your money is on Dan Miller, Richard Branson, Fred Goodwin, IBM and anybody else who makes a lot of money - even if they make some of that money by pimping neo-fascists.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, though, I don't see why you are interested in industrial, neo-folk, etc., or in this debate - surely someone with your tastes and attitudes should be on another blog, somewhere else, sucking up to Simon Cowell by now? Please - don't let us detain you any longer.
Smudger (!) says "Rice is a fascist and should be actively opposed." Oh dear, here we go again (and again, and again)... The year is 2011. You are fuelling your bogus bile from internet cullings from hmmm... let me guess... 1985-1995? You haven't a clue what Rice is or what he's about. I don't care if you criticise the fellow, but please have the sense to know what you're talking about before you start tapping like a hopped-up and feverish monkey on your keyboard. Otherwise, we're forced to conclude that you're just a little tosspot. Maybe Boyd's Jewish girlfriend will be with him in London — go up and have a go at him. Give 'em both a laugh at your expense.
ReplyDeleteOh, and I LIKE TECHNO, who didn't even know who NON was, tells us that it "appears that Boyd Rice has released an LP with Death in June about five years ago." An amazing deduction (well, it was 7 years ago, actually) which seems to impress Smudger, his brother in thumb-sucking incomprehension. Do pricks like you actually exist, or are you sock puppets invented to keep this comments board from drying up?
And with that question, I think I'll take my leave . . .
"express their creativity"
ReplyDeletedon't make me laugh..
Boyd Rice has "expressed his creativity" ONCE, in 1977, by drilling multiple holes in a record label – since which time innovation has been replaced by the increasingly desperate rhetoric of a talentless opportunist with social inadequacy issues. Daniel Miller is, indeed, an idiot for continuing to be associated with anyone espousing fascist views (his Jewish mother, who answered the door to me when I picked up my copy of 'TVOD' a year later, must be deeply ashamed).
ReplyDeleteOh, and 'Anonymous' above is an embarrassment who presumes much but analyses regrettably little.
Fada Killa
Sorry for the cold hand of fact having to descend on your shoulders again folks, but I believe Daniel Miller sold Mute Records and his share in it a good ten years or so ago.
ReplyDelete@mutant - sorry for the cold hand etc.
ReplyDeletewell,
Sorry for the cold hand of fact having to descend on your shoulders Mutant, but I believe Daniel Miller has got Mute Records or some area of control over Mute back again after having initially sold out to EMI less than a good ten years or so ago. EMI is owned by someone else now - perhaps that was a contract breaker.
And fact hasn't felt the need to come calling here because he is aware all is right and proper - its Falsehood and his pal Lies who keep visiting and trying to screw with Facts - or people wh think they know when they don't - this is why DM is doing the Roundhouse gig - not for some sad 'this is a label I used to own' reason but because it is something he has still....
Apologies for my unforgivable error, I should have said "I believe Daniel Miller sold Mute Records and his share in it.......nine months and eight months ago" (as he sold it in Sept 2002.
ReplyDeleteHowever I concede I was not aware of the recent developments regarding Mute:
http://www.emimusic.com/news/2010/mute-to-go-independent-again-through-new-agreement-between-emi-and-daniel-miller/
Still, glad to know daniel is suitably fit and well enough to take up the reigns again as he is a thoroughly decent guy.
Again, if you want to do something about Boyd Rice's involvement in this Roundhouse do, why not ply yourself off your keyboard for a minute and actually do something. I think Rice is an utter prick myself and i'm sure a lot of the crowd attending this event are ignorant of his fascistic flirtations (esp. his appearance on that Tom Metzger show) and perhaps if they were made so they may stop buying his records, and Daniel promoting him (if he is even aware of a lot of the crap Rice has done which to be honest i would doubt) . Has anyone actually contacted Mute about this? The few early Rice records I had on the label I bought in the 80s were just standard industrial fare. I expect it's only if you have taken an active interest in his oeuvre - or follow this site - you'd know of his more contemptible caperings. Just a thought?
correction, before you pounce on it:
ReplyDeleteApologies for my unforgivable error, I should have said "I believe Daniel Miller sold Mute Records and his share in it.......nine YEARS and eight months ago" (as he sold it in Sept 2002.
"If Rice matters that much to you then why don't you and your mates head over to The Roundhouse and try to stop the event? Put your money where your mouths are for a change!"
ReplyDelete"if you want to do something about Boyd Rice's involvement in this Roundhouse do, why not ply yourself off your keyboard for a minute and actually do something."
haha, those two comments do so sum it up so well what pathetic cowards you are. here's a guy who - contrary to those you are attacking here and constructing 'facts' - actually called himself a 'fascist' but still you rather chose to attack the small one-man-business of a hard working underground organizer (gaya) than dirty your hands with the big players (e.g. mute)
More up-to-the minute news:
ReplyDeletehttp://blog.iwantoneofthose.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/freddie-starr.jpg
Amongst all the entertaining accusations, counter-accusations and gossip about mini-celebrities on this peculiar website, it's notable that no-one has yet mentioned that one of the four 'team members' listed on the blog profile of whomakesthenazis is Nigel Ayers.
ReplyDeleteIn 1981 Nigel Ayers released MB's album 'Symphony For A Genocide' on his then record label Sterile. With a tracklist of seven doomy industrial/power electronics instrumentals all named after concentration camps, it became a new benchmark in Nazi fetishism among the industrial scene and immediately inspired Whitehouse, Ramleh and others to dabble in similar areas. Without this hugely influential release - funded by one of the regular authors of this blog, I repeat! - bands like the Grey Wolves and Genocide Organ simply would not exist in anything like the same form.
"Symphony was a classic of the industrial music genre, it has almost every cliché there. Maurizio's sleeve artwork was a photo of the Auschwitz Orchestra, a group of concentration camp prisoners who were forced to play classical music as people were herded into the gas chambers. On top of this was the MB "rune". - Nigel Ayers, from his earthly delights site.
FWIW I think it's a great album (much better than some of the shite it inspired) and I think this is mostly an interesting, worthwhile and argument-provoking website. I would be interested in hearing responses from some of the more zealous Nazi-hunters here about how they feel working alongside someone who has this shameful secret in their past ;)
yes - this is a more than reasonable request - the culture of transgression threw up some very questionable uses of other peoples misery - and this seems a particularly unpleasant example.
ReplyDeleteAn explanation is needed - both from Ayers himself and from the main person who runs this site - perhaps Ayers should do a John Eden and write a piece on his realisation that what he had helped spawn had become a human cess-pit with poisonous effects - although Edens involvement was considerably milder his taste touched similar areas.
Hello,
ReplyDeleteNigel Ayers here,
I have had the subject of that MB album brought up before, (The last time was during my one and only meeting with Philip Best of Whitehouse. This was just before he got onto the subject of Whitehouse's stance on child abuse and Caroline kneed him in the testicles).
The reception of cultural product is often very different from the artist's & record publisher's intention. I never regarded SFAG as in any way pro-nazi, as its focus was on the victims of nazism.
In retrospect, I can see that the record was ambiguous and subject to various interpretations, especially in the light of what William Bennett did with MB's material -- ie slapped a load of Hitler speeches on top of it.
I'll be writing at length on this depressing subject later...
It is a common mistake to think that sites like this see any reference to Nazism, fascism, etc., as necessarily entailing support for fascism, etc., and so the idea then arises that it is hypocritical not to damn any use of fascist imagery. In reality everything depends on the context, which is sometimes difficult to work out. I look forward to hearing what Nigel has to say about Maurizio Bianchi / MB. For the record, I liked his early releases and corresponded with him for a time.
ReplyDelete"The last time was during my one and only meeting with Philip Best of Whitehouse. This was just before he got onto the subject of Whitehouse's stance on child abuse and Caroline kneed him in the testicles."
ReplyDeleteWell done Caroline but out of interest what are his views?
"Well done Caroline but out of interest what are his views?"
ReplyDeleteMost likely that is was 'cool' - the same impulses that led him to release a compilation tape called 'White Power'. Irony of ironies, he was a child himself at the time, being just fifteen years old in 1983.
"what a toe-rag I was then" - Philip Best, December 2009.
This schism will probably go on for a long time. People who are "antifa" will always be able to read nazi flirtism into what artists do, just like extreme muslims/christians always will interpreting the koran/bible in ways which they find appropriate. Even if a rabbi would give show support for these artists, the antifa crowd would dismiss this as something or other. You people who accuse artists of being nazis without having facts: grow up and get a job..do something useful. Support the sick and old. Don't throw shit at a scene which wants to explore art on a different approach than the usual narrowmindedness of society, and wants to have fun while doing it.
ReplyDeletePeace & love
Wow, this is what I get for following links out of Indymedia stories. Half-a dozen zealots of varying flavours arguing over whether some nomark noise 'artist' with worldwide sales in three figures is a Nazi or not.
ReplyDeleteYou people seriously, urgently need to get out more. On second thoughts, I think I'd prefer it if you stayed behind your computers. As you were, folks...
@Anonymous "Don't throw shit at a scene which wants to explore art on a different approach than the usual narrowmindedness of society, and wants to have fun while doing it."
ReplyDeleteDo you mean a scene like the ""Autonomous Nationalist" faction, [] which copycats left-winged symbols and clothings to attract young people from the mainstream society."?
http://www.demotix.com/news/690014/neo-nazi-march-stopped-after-few-meters-berlingermany
Just got back from the Mute weekend (Friday and Saturday) at the Roundhouse and am wondering exactly what this blog is for? I am from the UK and living in Hungary where there is a real problem with the rise of the far right with the party Jobbik – anti Roma, anti global liberal economy, protectionist, extreme nationalist – with a copy version of the old Arrow Guard as a quasi military street force – a real worry and something that activists are here are trying to undermine. Here you go on about an obscure music scene that even the far right in the UK (see “Satanism and its allies” a booklet by the Final Conflict faction of ex NF grouplets) find “weird”, “with too many dodgy connections”, “not nationalist, in fact undermining to the Nationalist cause” and who steer away from these people and actively encourage fascists to ignore these groups. Your blog goes on about DIJ etc and yet on Friday Boyd Rice played a set at the Roundhouse enjoyed by a large crowd (about 300), with a small group of young Pakistani Brits at the front and there was no protest from anyone. Rice wandered around the venue all day and night Saturday unchallenged. The only other person with connections within this scene that I saw was the ex Sol Invictus bassist (see discogs - http://www.discogs.com/artist/Sol+Invictus )Karl Blake. He played with the band from the early recordings until around 2003 and he seems, if his myspace page is to be taken seriously, to have gone Antifa mad, ranting about ex-colleagues of his and their nazi links (I assume Wakeford here). He seems to be trying to atone for his working with the band all through their more definite NF and Perspectives group period and connections to the less than clear present. But even he seemed happy to be in the same room as Rice!
ReplyDeleteSo what is the point of this blog? Your, seemingly linked, `Fighting fascism in music’ facebook page asks for people to contact the local council and papers to get the 6 Comm gig at the Slimelight cancelled. In this most repressive of periods (see Royal wedding arrests pre wedding, etc) calling on the authorities to do anything seems to be a sign of the impotence of this group. You call on people to oppose these groups yet do nothing to further that end yourselves. I would suggest trying to tackle the real problem at the moment e.g. the newly repressive state, rising fascism in Europe e.g. Jobbik etc rather than spending a huge amount of time on this obscure scene and not following up your ranting with any action. Many anti-fascists will look on in dismay!
@ Bensusan - no, of course he didn't mean 'Autonomous Nationalists' - the Anonymous above was referring to the sometimes misguided artists which this site fixates on.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, thanks for the tipoff, I have just had a laugh at some of the pictures on the UK blogs of this 'movement' of seriously sad fucks who seemingly struggle to gather five people together for a putsch.
Still a better target for any real anti-fascist than some of the artists obsessed over here.
PART ONE
ReplyDelete--------
....having been alerted by a friend I just have come here to reply to the above poster - Ben 14th May, above.
I was at the Mute 'do' because a friend of mine has made a film about Mark Stewart of the Pop Group and Maffia - he is over from Berlin for that purpose and I am giving him somewhere to stay - he asked me if i wanted to go and I said I didn't mind either way - I would have gone on friday and was quite prepared to confront the piece of shit that is Boyd Rice - I am - contrary to your suggestion - unhappy to even share this earth with him - and as down as I am on myself at times for once I am elitist enough to believe I rate more worthy of survival than that particular specimen - And I was quite prepared to look for [and confront] other pieces of crap that might be adhering to the jerks coattails too. I am also disgusted by Daniel Millers attitude - but as was pointed out of course he'll defend the 'not needing defending' boyd rice - I can speak from experience that he can be very charming and very funny....BUT
I like to imagine Boyd on the Mrs. Merton show
"so, boyd, why are you so nice to the multi-millionaire [probably], promotor and financer of your records, payer of your occasional wages and jewish[?] daniel miller?"
I do understand Daniel Miller - I too defended an undeserving creep for far-too many years - THE INTERNET WASN'T THEN WHAT IT IS NOW THOUGH - IT DIDN'T HAVE WEBSITES SUCH AS THIS THAT DO A VERY MUCH NEEDED JOB.
SEARCHLIGHT MAGAZINE, FOR EXAMPLE - SHOULD PUT ALL OF ITS BACK ISSUES ONLINE
However, I could not get in on the Friday - I toyed with the idea of waiting outside for my ex-friends to arrive so as I could spoil their days in however small a way but as it was still early and the prospect of seeing the moron parade depressed me I went instead to the wonderful Morrisons supermarket, and thence home. Another friend who was there on the friday reported that Boyd was flouncing around the building as you reported - he also said that pleasingly - contrary to what you said - ANTIFA did make an appearance outside and there was trouble between them and security - the latter which was particularly large in number - my other friend didn't see anything - i suppose it depends where you were - its perfectly possible for people to be unaware inside a very noisy big building - what is happening in one small corner - when I shouted at the fuckwit mentioned above the people I was with not far ahead were unaware also.
I did attend saturday, however - and had the pleasure of telling a traitorous creep exactly what I thought of him [he is the subject of a blog on here] - I had to hurry to see the film or I would have spent more time on him - later I spent time walking round the edges and at the entrance at the back of the Hall when Laibach played looking out for his and any 'faces' I knew may be there to share 'thoughts' with - but there were none further - unless you, 'ben' were one of the three largish men one with bluish camo trousers who went through the other door and looked and sounded as if you were going to come over but changed your mind ...you should of - I welcome telling people what and why I believe what I do.
But I suspect your motives for coming here instead..and I have theories of who you may be.. the bit about asians at the front doesn't surprise me in the slightest - or prove anything - Its odd that someone as well informed as you on other matters seem to think it might - were YOU there to protest?
PART TWO
ReplyDelete--------
I am increasingly being driven to give account for my past - I am quite open to doing an interview about exactly what my position is - ironically it is a friend of a friend of wakeford who has been pushing for this to happen - I look forward to giving him exactly what he deserves - soon. I did do an interview for a book mentioned within this site [in 2006 I think] - and not unconnected with what I said earlier - but my comments and those of Eric Roger also were ignored - I also did an interview for a mag in Germany - but the subject of Sol Invictus must have been so boring or my rambling so unbearably tedious and hard to follow that I was 'nowhere' - its still a bloody good mag though...
I'll give you one or two quotes - I was always convinced the man [Wakeford] whilst remaining stupid in his opinions - nevertheless was inactive in Politics - in fact I was assured of this by both him and David Tibet [1987]. I hold up my hand and say I was politically almost totally ignorant - but my attitude was that as long as people were not pouring petrol through peoples letter boxes they were entitled to their opinions - as long as I wasn't helping promote such disagreeable opinions - and I didn't see the codes or whatever contained within the music - when i said to wakeford - why don't we play that song "LONG LIVE DEATH' from the first album he didn't enlighten me [I wasn't on the first album, by the way - and the first gig I played was in Tokyo at the end of '88 I think - there had apparently been Sol gig[s] before - at least he [wakeford] said - "private parties" - singular or plural I cannot remember...
Maybe there is a tape of these - maybe a release? "down on griffins farm" as a possible title - I wonder?
Wakeford said to me when he was due to marry Renee Rosen [who is jewish] that "I've lost friends as a result of this " [or words to that effect]- this was in 1998 - I replied "well, they are friends not worth having, aren't they, tony?" to which he merely grunted. At some time prior to this Tony had warned me off of doing an interview for a [possibly belgian] magazine - as he was aware it was politically dodgy - so there did seem to be indications that he was learning, and after all - his mate Richard Lawson and his funny [i mean that in a good way] wife seemed perfectly reasonable types] and many others thought the same - it wasn't until I had a meeting with stewart home after a chance meeting at a party in late 2005 that I knew who he REALLY was...Wakeford also made disparaging remarks about Combat 18 after some documentary on TV. which I hadn't heard - and I went to a pub with him once in Borough High Street and he recognised people who came in as Charlie Sergeant and other Combat 18 people and he got quite agitated.
PART THREE
ReplyDelete----------
Events in 2005 finally swung my opinion [ i was still in the band at this time - my last gig was Leipzig in May 2005 - the tour prior to this had been disrupted [in retrospect] by what I now know to be perfectly reasonable antifa action - and this is an odd one - we were told that it had occurred as a result of a stirring up of action by a certain Vienna-based musician who himself was a raving nazi who hated wakeford for various reasons - renee being jewish one of them and the other as I thought recently as possibly a result of the exclusion of a prospective musician from sol because of his presence on said persons label. Eric Roger did tell the story of his story on a french forum but sadly it was taken down - it is quite right that both of our stories need telling - I will stress though that If Wakeford dropped dead tomorrow I would continue to try to find out more and expose all the other people for doing what they are doing and have done - there is updating needed [connections are not old and dusty cobwebs whatever people may say] and the problems that other people mention are equally relevant it doesn't diminish the significance of this movement - a lot may just be unfortunate fashion victims and others such as Wakeford - may now be still keeping his/their rightist connections partly only for the money - small beer though it may now be - as Eric Owens said to wakeford in 2000 - you may not like it - but unfortunately for you we are your audience" - if I saw mention of sol being fascist I would alert wakeford to it and expect him to do something about it - it was his baggage not mine - or, for that matter the baggage of the people I recruited to the band whom I forewarned of Wakefords past - he asked me why I told them and I said that it was only right and proper if we were getting gigs cancelled at times for what I believed was him being an idiot at some point in his life - in retrospect I was an idiot. This probably strengthened his 'need to know' basis [or I possibly I was the not-need-to-know bassist from then on...] as I presume was the case when I asked whatever happened to that nice chap Tony Williams who we shared a holiday with in 1991 in Cornwall "because he had a car"
...some sort of evasive and effective answer obviously, because I didn't know the answer to that until 2005/6 -[see David Copeland - Bomber].
Enough. For now. So - if any genuinely antifascist magazine, individual, website or whatever that I am convinced of wants to talk to me about this who like me believe in 'NO PLATFORM FOR NAZIS' [to me - I will not argue about satanist nazis or anti-satanist nazis - they are all morons and all nazis - and I use that word because I want to - irrespective of 'theoretical inaccuracy - as Alan Trench said - if it looks like a nazi it is a nazi].
Thank-you for your posts Karl they are very informative. I was not at the Mute event to protest as I'm not convinced of the `political power' of this scene. I like the label and a significant part of its roster. I think Boyd Rice is a complete tosser and talentless musician who has made a career out of the bare minimum of ideas and whose past connections with Bob Heick, US Fascism, his Satanic Rally and his misogyny all put him in the `dangerous idiot' category. I watched his performance out of curiosity as I imagine did a lot of others. Otherwise what you seem to say about Wakeford is that, through the examples you use, he was trying to distance himself from his fascist past but still has connections with some of those people e.g. Lawson? Does this mean you still think he is part of a fascist scene, whether that is the music scene or the people around it? I don't know how many members of Jobbik listen to neo-folk but I don't think it is many or even any? We have a real problem here in Hungary and that is what I will concentrate on. This scene and your agreement with "if it looks like a Nazi it is a Nazi" concerns me. Did you think that Laibach were/are Nazi's and did watching them confirm this? Or were you watching because you were going to `front up' to the neo folkers and industrial fans? I think that most people would not agree that Laibach are in any way Fascist, least of all Zizek, Laibach themselves and most other people who have followed their work.
ReplyDeleteFascism needs opposing and tackling where it is developing an organized and coherent political program and political force, is this music scene a real site for that type of development?
Regards, Ben
To be fair, I don't think that anyone here has claimed that Laibach are fascist. They certainly occupy contentious ground, but are one of the few acts who ask serious questions about nationalism, statehood and cultural identity but with a paradoxically 'light touch'. In fact, they're pretty much unique in this regard.
ReplyDeleteGiven Karl Blake's long career in experimental music, I'd be very surprised to find him making glib, knee-jerk judgements based solely upon 'appearances'.
"Is this music scene a real site for that type of development?" It's far from inconceivable that youthful members of Jobbik and other populist far-right groups would look to music which seeks to address their extremist concerns – the German NPD and, here, the BNP have invested in successive music distribution operations – not to mention the tens of thousands of NS Black Metal CDs imported worldwide. This hardly seems a point worth labouring, unless Ben is denying the direct right wing links of so many involved in Neo-folk.....
All you sad creeps need to take a rest — especially Karl Blake, but he's just mentally ill. Almost no-one who writes anything on this blog actually knows anything about the people they profess to abhor and attack. You must understand that Karl's entire beef with his ex-buddies is nothing to do with politics. It is entirely(!) due to the fact that on a tour of Europe with DIJ, Fire + Ice and NON, Doug P, Boyd Rice and Ian Read mercilessly took the piss out of poor Karl because of his endless ranting in the back of the tour van about carpet tiles. This so embarrassed Blake that he's had a vendetta ever since and has cast himself in what he regards as the polar opposite light to his former colleagues, maintaining a deranged hyper-attachment to anti-sexism, anti-racism etc. He should just relax. I'm sure his ex-colleagues don't lie awake at night thinking about him. But, then again, hanging around with people like Stewart Home won't get him off this depressing merry-go-round he's on.
ReplyDeleteLove this blog. I've been following it for a while now with fascination. It is long overdue that someone took up the cudgels in my opinion, and it's good to see. Especially in light of the specious defenses made on behalf of these neofolk numpties by various morons.
ReplyDeleteBlake's comments here finally made pushed me to comment myself. It seems he is the only person that has been involved (knowingly or not) in the whole crypto fascist music scene (and I know from experience that that is what it is) that actually has the cahunas to come out and discuss his own position and make a stand against it here on this blog. Not an easy thing to do I should imagine. I think it shows courage and integrity. Prompted by this post I had a look around on the web to see what else he has said about the whole scene, and it is very clear that he's come out against Wakeford, Rice and plenty of others and stated clearly that he stands in direct opposition to the latent fascism therein.
Funny that you hear nothing from the other people taken to task on this site making any comment about the criticisms made against them. I don't believe for a moment that they aren't aware of it. Telling, n'est pas?
Good on you Mr Blake for that, and keep up the good work on this blog.
p.s. I find a little odd that David Tibet has had a such an easy rise on here. Fascist or not he's a snake oil salesman and I'd love to hear his reasons for involvement with some of these lowlifes.
Just for the record I'm not denying the links of a lot of the people involved in neo-folk to fascism, the new right etc, but there are music scenes such as the Blood and Honour network where the bands and the politics are completely interlinked (e.g Stigger, Avalon, etc). With neo-folk there seems to be other influences and agendas e.g. paganism, traditionalists, nihilists etc. The fascism is in the scene but it is more diffuse. As far as Jobbik goes the music links are not obvious, with the BNP there are the direct links to B and H and they also tried to produce some folk song but it was so awful that no one took it remotely seriously.
ReplyDeleteSo I don't deny the link of fascism and neo-folk - it is of course there - I just question the approach that concentrates on this scene and not on the BNP, BPP, BFF, Jobbik, etc. The organizational form of these politics is where they should be hit hardest as that is where a large force can be brought out against them, listening to some isolationist neo folk and dreaming of Evola is problematic but not the same as organizing politically in a community and trying to stir up racial hatred, xenophobic nationalism or anti-immigrant/roma fear.
Regards, Ben
@James Cavanagh
ReplyDeleteyou obvioulsy know really nothing about the things you talk...if you claim Blutharsch to be facist these days you simply do not know about them..they renamed and since at elast 5 years are a hippy psychedelic band....Albin Julius always did talk clear that he in not a facist and has no sypathies for such ideologies....
and he never was a friend of Jörg haider, although he would have enjoyed for sure taking some cocaine with him...and he never ever was a fan - the only thing he ever said about Haider was that he finds him quit entertaining....
you just collect lies and try to make them look serious..poor Looser youz!
Go and have a real life!
@ Ben
ReplyDeleteI take your point but the description of the blog is "Keeping an eye on the neo-fascists burrowing their way into a subculture near you". There are a lot of activists fighting against the far-right parties in many ways, and doing excellent work. This blog is all about low-visibilty cultural entryism rather than fighting those undisguised fascist organisations. All fascist activity needs opposing, and this blog does its bit in a very specific area.
@ Anonymous (@ James Cavanagh) - Ha, ha, ha! Don't be a jerk all your life mate.
Smudger, in what way does this blog do "excellent work"? What constitutes such a description?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.xs4all.nl/~afa/alert/engels/sl8_2004.html
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said... "Smudger, in what way does this blog do "excellent work"? What constitutes such a description?"
ReplyDeleteStandard 'disingenuous troll' alert. It's precisely the existence of wheedling fascist apologists like 'Anonymous' above which makes the objective, rational discussion of these issues so fraught. He/she/it chooses to misquote Smudger in the hope of diverting attention from his central point, without advancing the debate one iota.
Can we get beyond this semantic hall of mirrors and look at ways in which dangerous ideas are drawn from 'politics' and amplified in 'art'? To suggest that anything exists in isolation these days is equally disingenuous: just look at the CV and 'political' associations of someone like Alex Kurtagić (Supernal Music).....
Robin Reliant
According to this report (the link provied a coupe of comments above):
ReplyDelete"Albin Julius, and openly flirts with nazi occultism. Julius is keen fan of the Austrian right-wing extremist, Jörg Haider. Haider makes stands the government should have taken earlier, he told the Greek Neo-folk/Dark Wave magazine L'ame Electrique.
Julius also said in the interview that he did not regard Haider as extreme right-wing. In another interview, with the German Gothic magazine Black, he stated that he hoped that Europe would consist again of 'national states' and that there would be 'finally a halt to migration'."
There's nothing about the significance of carpet tiles anywhere in this account, just bog standard racism and flirting with 'strong men' of action, and all the usual fascist guff.
I received a text last night from my friend Karl Blake asking me to pass on that he is currently offline but will reply to any comments making reference to him as soon as he is back online.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't really think anyone would be too bothered by what Albin Julius thinks of them anyway. A fat, stuttering, facial tic afflicted cunt who shat himself and went clamouring for protection from the security at Slimelight after being challenged about using the Croatian fascist symbol by a size zero Croatian girl. So funny the way everyone there saw you for the blubbering, twitching WANKER you are and no surprise you haven't been back since.
ReplyDeleteThe gentleman signining himself as A.JIULIUS is evidently not the real Albin but some shit stirrer that probably knows a lot of what happened between the interested parties.
ReplyDeleteThe real mr. Julius express in a much more outright way with a least elevated English.
Regarding Searchlight, they wrote several imprecise news in the past, often misunderstanding their own sources, when not inventing their news. The guys from Monitor were a much more reliable/less hysterical source.
Regarding Laibach I think even stones know thay they can't be easily understood by judging the surface, but their work centered on totalitarian imagery (be it fascist, communist and pop cuture) to subvert these symbol and display pop culture/commercial music totalitarian nature.
http://kasamaproject.org/2010/05/26/zizek-on-laibach-and-cynicism-as-ideology/
They were stressing with strong apparently right wing imagery due to the fact they lived under one of the worst communist countries -no matter what your ideas are, Tito was a butcher, almost worse than Stalin, openly advocating ethnic cleansing- and they got arrested several times only because of their monicker. They sort of changed imagery after Slovenia's independence declaring NSK as a Universal state. They have recently played at openly anti-racist gigs. - I can't find the link at the moment, sorry-.
Meanwhile, there is still no one out there willing to reissue Blake's albums. The ones he's riling against are doing decidedly better in that department. Coincidence or just sour grapes?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteAnon: "Coincidence or just sour grapes?"
ReplyDeleteOr just that he discovered he was involved in a rats nest of crypto-fascists?
"Or just that he discovered he was involved in a rats nest of crypto-fascists?"
ReplyDeleteWho would those "crypto-fascists" be Shock Headed Peters, The Lemon Kittens or current CD-r project (without a label) Amal Gamal Ensemble?
Come on Strelnikov, even if you are a busy communist arsehole with a pathological need to bully people I have never thought you were unintelligent. What part of Blake very likely being bitter about his former friends whose albums keep getting reissued year after year while his catalogue remains out of print do you not understand?
ReplyDeleteOh, I understand it perfectly - it's a 'throwing sand in your face', 'don't look over there, look over here', pointless, diversionary attempt to change the subject from the discussion of neo-fascist sympathies among some musicians. Unfortunately your attempt fails since it attempts to conjure (out of nothing whatsoever) the unbelievable spectacle - which no one in their right minds could surely ever believe in - of someone being jealous of the worldly success and social standing of, eg., Tony Wakeford.
ReplyDeleteCalling someone a "A fat, stuttering, facial tic afflicted cunt" is somehow not an attempt to conjure something out of nothing?
ReplyDeleteBy all means scoff at Wakeford's lack of success and social standing but it's evident that he got a bigger chunk from the scraps off the musical table than Blake did. Jealousy is a natural human emotion. For some of us it becomes a spur to achieve something greater. Sadly a lot of people choose the destructive path of inflicting harm on those with the success they so dearly want for themselves. Like Blake here. It's an ugly, ugly thing.
Is it so hard for you to imagine that some people have ulterior motives? Just because they say something that fits your agenda doesn't mean they are honourable people. Blake certainly comes across as anything but.
There is a different point here in that Blake in his posts above talks a lot about Wakeford moving away from his former Fascist chums and past, and then Blake has the enlightening meeting with Stewart Home in 2005, this co-incides with him being sacked from Sol Invictus, and all of a sudden we have Karl Blake anti-fascist fighter who, in his own words, was politically unaware up until this point. Isn't it strange that all the examples of Wakeford's fascism or even links to fellow fascists are pre 2000 (with most being early 1980s) and the ones this blog refers to that are current are having While Angels Watch (whose Dev has worked with Troy Southgate) and Richard Moult (who was a nazi satanist and has claimed that he is now a christian!) on a compilation that has been produced by Tursa (Wakefords label) and Kaparte (another promoter). David Tibet has greater links with Richard Moult (he describes him as a friend and has collaborated with him). Does all this make Wakeford a fascist now? Don't think so, any more than it makes Blake a fascist for playing with Wakeford for years or the Seventh Harmonic girls (Lesley and Caroline) fascists for playing with Wakeford. Doug Pearce has come out with far more reactionary crap than Wakeford in the last 10 years, so maybe Blake should get some perspective on the changing allegiances in this scene.
ReplyDeleteThe 'reissuing' argument makes no sense, especially as the majority of these bands run their own labels, or release product on labels managed out of back rooms. Anybody with access to a reasonable wage can earmark the money to get a small run of 200-300 CDs pressed up - whether or not they sell and generate a profit is another matter. You make it sound like some A&R guy from a major label's expressing interest in either camp, and whisking Wakeford & Co off to interviews while Blake rages on the sidewalk. Besides, isn't 'OOP' the ultimate accolade in this rarity-fetishising genre?
ReplyDeleteIncidentally, this thread completely disproves the fallacious whines cropping up on random forums that Strelnikov censoriously deletes all pro-neofolk commenters. Just a shame these guys all seem incapable of staying on topic.
@ Anonymous
ReplyDeleteWakeford was still selling his blatantly fascist Songs of the Wolf EP on his Tursa label in 2007, the same year that he made his statement claiming to have had nothing to do with fascism, fascists etc for twenty years. (See the Piss Poor Poet Found in The Dustbin of History post on this blog).
That was two years after Blake had been kicked out of Sol Invictus. Wakeford has Andrew King in the band for fuck's sake. There is no reason to believe Wakeford has fundamentally changed his views. That's why you won't find him defending himself here. Too tricky.
No one said anything about major labels or A&R men. The cold hard facts that no one is keeping Blake's catalogue alive while his estranged friends are reissued regularly remain. Like another poster said, he was happy to associate himself with these so called fascists up until 2005. Then, as a by a stroke of magic, he had a revelation which just happened to coincide with being booted from Sol Invictus. Too right I question his motives.
ReplyDelete@ everyone here: I am the real Albin Sunlight Julius and I got pointed out by a friend to this blog..I have not writen anything here yet..nor would I ever spread a bad word about Kalr Blake or other - at least not in public to entertain people who obviously have nothing better to do with their life to waste it behind a computer feeling important to chase so called Nazis..COME ON! YOU ARE 10 YEARS TOO LATE!..this is the first time..so whoiever uses my name isn`t me for sure....for further communication about me being a Nazi - oh how funny....didn`t you all out there notice that Der Blutharsch totally changed and has not anything to do witht eh above mentioned !ah so nasyt aestehtics! anymore..wake up!
ReplyDeleteAnd if you want to tell em anything, please use my official emailadress: wkn@aon.at - I am open for discussion everytime!
LOVE!
Albin Sunlight Juliuus
By 'estranged friends' you mean certain erstwhile 'musicians' who collaborate with unreconstructed fascists like Ian Read and seem to fall into a Herr Flick dressing-up-box when they get out of bed? In which case i'm sure it's not something Blake is losing much sleep over.
ReplyDeleteThat there exists a demand for such trash as Sol Invictus, Das Blutharsch, DIJ etc surely therefore only validates the necessity of a site like this?
If cretins like Wakeford, Julius etc AREN'T 'into' fascism why is their entire image and oeuvre based on that entire historic episode and ideology? Other than that they are 'into' it and that it's posturings sell records I can't really imagine any other reason.
Some of the comments from apologists above are as bewildering and inconceivable as there being some parallel site where punks are claiming that Crass weren't really into vegetarianism and pacifism and in fact liked nothing better than scoffing a few Big Macs before going to the football for a punch-up.
Or to paraphrase an apt analogy; "if you wear a CND badge people will assume you to believe in nuclear disarmament. If you wear an SS Totenkopf......"
Euro Boyd.....as Albin Julius - the real? stated - Blutharsch did change and so their image and oevre did change and is not based on whatever you blabble....
ReplyDeleteAnd - the worl needs more trash - ein Volk, ein Reich ein trash!
PART 1
ReplyDeleteOK - FIRSTLY - As regards Wakeford - - I think I'll christen him 'TEFLON TONY' - from what I can ascertain - going by what he said in "Englands Hidden Reverse" about being put away [by the police] for a very long time - this does not add up. He says this was for petty crime and it doesn't explain, why, in about 2000 he was briefly taken to one side by two police on entering the country. He returned to us [some of the band] visibly shaken and said " Err, they said "WE KNOW YOU". His constant "Leagas and Pearce were wholly innocent - it was just me" smacks to me of mutual silence being beneficial rather being than being motivated by friendship. On the quiet his talk about them was - "Dougs lost the plot" -when Douglas was fighting world serpent - and anger at bootlegs of DIJ that Patrick had put out without paying anyone else.
He is morally lax and totally defined by heightened self-interest, and because he dislikes certain kinds of confrontations is inclined to be two faced in his actions. Curiously, I noted in the booklet you mentioned [Satan etc.] that Sol Invictus were mentioned - but in no depth whatsoever - merely as a link to get to the subject of Ian Read - an enemy of Wakefords [as a result of real jealousy - not the 'supposed' jealousy I suffer from]. He was also too loose-tongued in public for Wakeford's liking]. I suspect, therefore, that Wakeeford keeps a foot in many camps rather than taking sides: one camp being the nazi who wrote the booklet "Satan etc....which incidently does supply valuable info on the "enemy", despite having a bizarre theory about Paul Maccartneys "Mull of Kintyre"!!!
Some time after my tenure with the Sol Invictus ended I discovered a Searchlight article from 1997 or maybe 1998 that dealt with Wakeford, Read and Freya Aswynn and others, which Wakeford undoubtedly knew about. This is one example of his total selfishness - rather than inform us [the rest of the band] about the article and let us decide about our position in the light of its publication ['we' = the band - you should note that all the releases read "Tony Wakeford with..." in other words he was Sol Invictus]. When it suited him we all were Sol Invictus - ie. when he wanted to prove to antifa that he couldn't possibly be fash of any kind. To give an example- there was an incident in England, early in the band's existence, when we were told of a threat to firebomb the queue for a gig with Death in June in Clapham Junction. [The Sol gig was cancelled the DIJ moved] - Wakeford used the band to claim - "We're not fascist - i've got an anti-apartheid'[sic] on cello, a chaos musician on drums, and a nutter on bass!". This has been his regular defense technique ever since - to hide behind his ill-informed band's ethnicity, faith or whatever.
PART 2
ReplyDeleteMy own theory is that Wakeford is first and foremost a casuist - [but one that he would prefer that some kind of fascist state existed]. He bites his lip and writes pap about a mythical world of kings, queens and fools - I think he feels that way politically irrespective of any nonsense about his wife being Jewish or his bassist being a lesbian [and I bet he never told the latter that the title of her photo exhibition was lifted from a line of my Underneath project in 1986 - 'World Turn Green' - from the track 'Smear Ghosts' - he did ask my permission at the time]. He hides behind the laymans view of 'fascism' . A recent posting on Stormfront England said that his friend Richard Lawson's wife Eve was in fact part-Jewish - which in turn made his daughter, who the poster also said was an activist - Jewish also - and yet he [Lawson] is credited with anti-semetic writings in the 70s and 80s [aside from being the [ghost] author of a pamphlet called 'Lifting the Lid on the Anti-Nazi League' - and his mate Patrick Harrington - NF and latterly a BNP defender from the position of boss of the 'fake' union - Solidarity], worked with Jewish activist [and separatist] Rabbi Schiller.
This again is rambling - but there are facts that need to be aired.
Anyway, music is part of the unifying zeitgeist and as a part of a cultural organism is open to infection, which is exactly what is happening and I don't think it is just tied to the neo-ghetto.This site makes an error at times of knocking the music - and that is neither a here or there - it's the Vessel and not the Essence. I too grew through a loose reactionary culture of transgression and believe in the flag of freedom...but only up to a point. The far right use civil rights for their own ends as well - use tolerance to defend their intolerance. I recall again how the KKK was represented by a black lawyer when fighting for their right to have their own public TV in the U.S.A. - and government repression is used as a shared bogey man to hide in amongst or alongside the extreme left, for example Casa Pound in Italy. My response about "looks like a nazi" in that case may well be sorely tested. If I come out with "hate-speech against hate speech" it is my reactionary shift against all of that - I've got 'Neo-poisoning' if you like! I really am fed up with it and a lot of that is down to feeling thoroughly used and duped. I hold my hand up and say I enjoyed going abroad and playing all the time - and recording. Its my own fault that I took the path of least resistance and sat back and took the easy option of just turning up and playing bass and laughing at all the idiots with silly haircuts and anal-aryan uniforms. I will agree that I am now, by contrast - guilty of "kill 'em all - let God decide" type reasoning here with the comment I made in an earlier post.
PART 3
ReplyDeleteSo, to get back to Wakeford - he became aware as a result of Eric Owen's letter and more recently [2004] the 'Looking for Europe' - book / cd - [which by using a title of his really cast him as a figurehead] of the route he should now take. Myspace also further enlivened him [and the whole Neo scene] considerably . From a moral point of view he is in a complex situation - damned if he does or doesn't do something - but oddly he is being seemingly successful in his balancing act. It is precisely because only interested parties interview him - or lightweight music mags - that he doesn't undergo the sort of questioning he really deserves. As I have said - he has help from unexpected quarters - from certain apparently left-wing academics, for example, who were well aware of Wakefords true nature but for whatever reason have chosen to help him be whitewashed. If you look at certain recent alliances Wakeford has made he has caused himself to be linked again to both the Italian and the French far-right. He has re-established linkage with Albin Julius who has claimed to be not fascist and yet put out a release by Zetzeroalpha - the Casa Pound band from Italy, and linked up again on his compilation cd "...With Friends Like These' with the fellow Gregorio Bardini - who has links with Thierry Jolif of Lonsai Markov which in turn has connections to the French Nouvelle Droite. Richard Moult was also on this release, which was on both Wakeford's Tursa AND Klarita Pandolfis Kaparte labels. [For the uninformed - Klarita - ex- of Ain Soph - has been promoting bands such as Naevus at her place of work, Tate Britain and at the National Portrait Gallery].
But back to Richard Moult - not only is he still in Orchestre Noir - he also hasn't moved from his worship of David "combat 18/NSM/ONA" Myatt - last year he wrote a glowing forward to Myatt's online lifestory and I'm fairly sure he has been the one keeping his web presence alive [besides the efforts of the man himself]. So, so much for Wakeford hating Combat 18 and Myatt - all the NF did - the C18 drew too much attention to the far right - the 'mainstream far-right' only distanced itself because they was afraid of the heavy hand of the authorities.
I repeat - Wakeford wants to be seen to be not fascist - but only up to a point - so as not to alienate either side AND continue to SELL RECORDS - because money and personal comfort is really his number one consideration. Like anyone else - even though he isn't any longer a serious political contender, say - he'd like to see 'his ideas/ prejudices' on the winning side. I bet he has a right old sing-along to andrew kings cover of the David E. Williams song mentioned above despite supposedly threatening King with dismissal if he put it out under his own name two years ago...
PART 3
ReplyDeleteOne other thing - the compilation "Not Alone" - a five cd benefit album put out in 2006 (http://www.discogs.com/Various-Not-Alone/release/638749) - and compiled by David Tibet. Profits were/are to go to medicin san frontiere to combat aids in Africa. How many compilations are sol invictus on? Loads - but not that one - even though Wakeford had his own studio at that point or could of, like my own Shock Headed Peters, given an old unreleased track - his reply to me when I mentioned it at the time was [talking about Tibet's request for a track] "you know what my response was, don't you" - so, no Sol on that release.....
Anyway - to Ben, again -
I advise you further to try to contact the webmaster here to do a piece about Jobbik and any cultural sources they may be feeding on and music they may like etc..
And you asked about Laibach - to me on cursory glance they are the musical version of "Romper Stomper" or "American History X" - supposed moral counters critiquing the far-right but 'turned around' and used as visual/aural pornography IN PART by the far-right [as sadly I have seen this website described as 'making fascism sexy";-{ ] - in the same way peedos might use innocent pics of babies for their own ends. I liked some of Laibach's music at the Roundhouse - I didn't like the literal porn [the blow job footage - but thats just my own prejudice] - I don't know what they [Laibach] actually represent - I have heard rumours about some people connected to them - I prefer truth and facts however and will continue to look...
So - in answer to your last and probably most important question:
"Fascism needs opposing and tackling where it is developing an organized and coherent political program and political force, is this music scene a real site for that type of development?" - Yes it should be tackled even if it apparently doesn't apparently conform to the "organised and coherent" dictum for, as ROBIN RELIANT said above "Can we get beyond this semantic hall of mirrors and look at ways in which dangerous ideas are drawn from 'politics' and amplified in 'art'? To suggest that anything exists in isolation these days is equally disingenuous: just look at the CV and 'political' associations of someone like Alex Kurtagić (Supernal Music) -and I'll say also if people like Troy Southgate, Jonathan Bowden - friends and associates of Kurtagić as well as would-be politicians [or activists] first and foremost are connected and interested to this area of music then yes - opposition and investigation and taking it seriously is needed however small and insignificant the scene may seem... the old english saying "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves" - i'd say look after the pennies as well as the pounds... I'd call what we are taking on here a form of "investment fascism" - all these idiots with their uniform and badges today are the middle-management, bankers, scientists, web designers etc. of tomorrow
PART 4
ReplyDeleteand this -
...thats the problem with not having constant linkage to the internet. Someone asks you something and a whole load of other people respond in the interim - and I am afraid I haven't the time to do an in depth reply to all now.
But I must say this - my 'being sacked' from Sol Invictus came about as a result of a couple of things - the specific one relating to this being that Eric Roger was sacked for objecting to the [i'd say] 95% fashtype line-up we [sol] were being grouped with in a particular hall over 2 days as part of the Leipzig Gothik Treffen [2005]. Eric spoke to Wakeford about this first and he agreed that it sounded bad - Eric himself then contacted the promoter - which caused considerable flack - the first I heard about it was to get a phone call from tony saying " hes gone mad!!" - Wakeford then sent Eric an email telling him as much [that he'd gone mad] but that he could continue in Orchestre Noir as he valued his abilities... Eric understandably refused Wakefords 'kind' offer by not reponding at which point Wakeford had a further meltdown.
I had agreed to do the gig so honoured my responsibilities, but not without aggravation from Wakeford as It had already been arranged for me to be in Paris to rehearse with Eric before his 'departure' so transport became more complicated. When I eventually got to Leipzig I had with me a list of the bands and dodgy connections that Eric had done for me - as these were european and some [most] I hadn't heard of before - I offered it to Wakeford to look at but he refused to do so. He also failed to confront Albin Julius who was at the top of the stairs at the venue having said when I told him about Albin's presence that he didn't see him - he was still only a few metres away. Wakeford previously had said he would do various things to him as a result of the tour problems that we had been told were caused by Julius, and neither did he seek to avenge comments made sometime earlier by Julius to a World Serpent Person [I believe] about Wakefords wife].
PART 5
ReplyDeleteI decided to leave Sol Invictus myself soon after this gig - and mentioned this to a third party who may well have informed Wakeford. I refused a [Polish?] gig we were offered in October '05 and Wakeford [on the phone] said he was thinking about changes - he wasn't sure what to do about Sol] - this was the last time we spoke. I found out from the same 'third party' above in Jan or Feb of '06 [who contacted me to complain about Wakefords behaviour to them and a friend] that this [around the time of the Wakeford phone call] was when I was sacked!. This is a boiled-down version of events - I'm sure Eric can fill in [and I hope he does] - we have emails to prove this chain of events and no doubt will have to do so etc. etc.
I must hurry - my access is very limited - they rush at me wanting to re-attach the straight-jacket and feed me pills - as they see the slight glimmer of carpet tile in my eyes!! ;-}
So - I am mentally ill, am I ? Seems a particular nazi type of accusation - and no doubt the person who said that has a particular nazi solution to that problem. After all, I may be dangerous, you know...
The tiles in question took a maximum of say one minute to mention on that fucking awful tour I did because I needed the money - I should have paid attention to Wakeford that time ["oo-er you knew what they were like!"] - just to establish - they really are interesting carpet tiles - Heuga Felt - made with boars hair, pitch [thats tar] and hessian - and need a light watering every month to start with. The only consistently decent company on that tour was John Murphy - Ian Read went on about things such as why he was in the Masons, the Hollow Earth theory, dissing Albin's ex-girlfriend because her facial shape showed that she was a 'Slav'or somesuch, theories about if a black man had sex with a woman some chemical trace remained??? - and [admiringly] about two old men he had met who had head calipers to measure someones aryan status - and it was he [Read] and not I who had the piss ripped out of him - he said to me as a result - "You know, Karl, they are like this because this is all they have but I have this and also am the sixth most important person in the occult world today!"[or words very much to that effect].Then he came back home and spoke to one of World Serpent - who we were united in being angry with for different reasons on on that tour - and told them the carpet tile story.
PART 6
ReplyDeleteDoug and Boyd would be drinking at eleven in the morning or thereabouts. Albin was busy being unfaithful to his girlfriend and exhibiting an ego so large that his partner in Der Bloodyawful was telling us that he'd had enough of him and was thinking of going home.
O.K. and this will be taken out of context - but here goes - I was intent on making Wakefords life a misery at some point after Liepzig because of the treachery he had shown and lies he had told - however, as a result of what I learnt subsequently, had Wakeford dropped dead say at the end of 2005 I would still be pursuing what I think is a worthwhile activity - and thats fighting fascism in neofolk and elsewhere - what I thought consisted of merely a few idiots - was wrong - which subsequently learned through discussion with people such as Eric Roger and Stewart Home - and any previous allegiances as mentioned above were purely and simply musical - and a degree of [in some cases] misplaced friendship. I could have just walked away when my time in Sol ended - I could have played up to the neofolkers and done ok had I been so disposed - I didn't take the easy path - and by the way, Shock Headed Peters were effectively "given an offer they had to refuse" in 1997 and were effectively thrown off of World Serpent for poor sales. I have never hidden this nor did it cause any rancour in my relationship with Wakeford at that time - why should it? if you look at my Myspaces it probably says the same somewhere - and I've always made a point of my "arm, a leg and an eye for an eye" policy [boy, the books getting big - payout time soon] - I also have said I have had to cut off from some people who I was to a degree sad to go. This isn't a career move - this is all to do with conscience and sense of right and wrong - and I really hate liars.
I was politically ignorant as I said - but only up to a point - I was unaware, say, of the political significance of Runes, of 2nd W.W. history, of the Black Sun - I always stood against what I understood as fascism - which was racism and ultra-authoritarianism - Boyd Rice said to to me at the end of this tour "I guess Karl you'll have to be De-nazified" - and I overheard him talking about me also - "Hes ANTI-EVERYTHING!"...
He also said "You know, he didn't get involved in the thing that united us the most on this tour" - this was reference to the confrontation with three supposed 'minders' of a group of coach party of people of southern Mediterranean appearance in a motorway service station.[which maybe started when the other member of Der Blutwaddever - the well-over 6ft bloke from Tesco Org with alopecia, muttered under his breath when they entered the shop "Untermensch"....] Rice obviously thought that I should have taken their side after this idiot had made this despicable comment...
One last observation of this tour - every place in Germany we went to they [including John] would all visit the Army Surplus stores in search of 'memorabilia' [eg. swastika belt-buckles].
More, MUCH more, later. And I said that I thought the original 'a.julius' was a fake - I think I know who it was - they'll do, anyway. Hi, anyway to the real Albin [sunlight....] - but I still don't like or believe you [looks like I'm not alone], and you do Sky Saxon a disservice - maybe you confuse him with Kurt Saxon?
This article may be of interest:
ReplyDeletehttp://datacide.c8.com/from-subculture-to-hegemony-transversal-strategies-of-the-new-right-in-neofolk-and-martial-industrial/
Dear Karl....
ReplyDeleteso, my former bandmate thought about going home - are you talking about Klaus from Tesco, which still am big friend with and who are since then still selling my records - must be, so I can ask if he really siad this, but I do not belief you - honestly..Klaus is an open person and always tells what he thinks straight in your face!
And, no its of corse Sky Saxon which I met in Vienna 2 months before he died - and knowing about his death and liking our msuic - we already talked about a collaboration - indeed - you won´t belief sinbce we met first time 5 years ago and since have been in regular touch - that if he dies he inhgerits me the sunlight - his words were "might you carry the sunlight and love towards the world when I am in other places enjoying the astral weed!" - and of corse we both enjoey it the night as well....
Nevertheless....Karl, I think you better concentrate on your music and life than to waste time on silly matters like the mentioned bands who in fact don´t really interrest that many people - so its really a waste of time!
LOVE!
Albin Sunlight Julius
This is....just, incredible. So much fuss over a long dead impotent scene and this alleged nazi rally at a long past its prime goth venue – that REALLY needs to be put out of its misery.
ReplyDeleteReally guys, move along. There are probably more people posting responses to this thread than will attend the gig, so maybe find a new hobby, jigsaws perhaps?
These personal grudges masquerading as political concern are just embarrassing for all involved.
Dear Smudger.....YES, I do..thats how it workes normally - people change and so do their interrests (althoug I never considered myself a Nazi - but enjoyed the attention I got via this image and more the free promotion and therefore the increasing sales which gave me a comfortable lifestyle, alowed me to buy a huge house in the woods etc) - or in other cases beliefs...but you seam to know everything - so what- you know what I gibe about such loosers than you are? Nothing! Absolutelly nothing - and now I hop into my nice sportcar I bought with the royalties of the nasty band I was in and drive to a nice concert hall to see Oxbow and 7 that spells..... and enjoy my life - with or without uniforms!
ReplyDeleteUniforms are always changing , Rock n Roll will stay forever!
LOVE! for those who enjoy and know how to love, Hate! for those who do not know to love but need other emotions to feel alive!
And you can now write whatever you want..I do not care and won´t return to this "waste of time" page as I have a real life which is cosey and groovy - maybe I smoke some weed ntonight and have a laugh - I think I will...
Albin Sunlight Julius
@ Albin Julius.
ReplyDelete"And you can now write whatever you want..I do not care and won't return to this "waste of time" page as I have a real life which is cosey and groovy"
Bullshit. You'll be taking a peep at this site regularly even if you don't comment. I'm sure you love the fact that being a nazi scumbag has made you a little bit of money, and you think that in some way you are putting one over on everybody, but the truth is your politics will come back to haunt you all your life. Everything about you is unforgivable.
There are probably a tiny minority of fascists, neo-nazis and sick sad individuals that thought your nazi-fetishising was in some way a good thing and so were happy to buy your execrable music, but most people wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
The truth is you can insult me all you like, but only because I stand in opposition to fascist scum like you. I hope this site and others continue to expose you as the despicable creep you are. You have definitely done a good job of that yourself today. Keep looking over your shoulder you ugly-hearted arsehole, because there's a good chance that one day someone whose parents died in the holocaust is going to be there standing there, ready to make you understand, you Nazi cunt.
Interesting that Julius is at greater pains to maintain good pals with his major distributor Klaus than to address the shocking and shameful use of the word 'untermensch' when used to describe Roma people.
ReplyDeleteRobin Reliant
From Tesco.Org, via Wikipedia:
ReplyDelete"Tesco Organisation Principles
The organisation does not involve itself in any propaganda, but instead lets its artists speak on their behalf. [9] The artists who release recordings on the organisation’s record label all have something in common with Tesco. The organisation's members stay neutral and support their recording artist's views. [10] Tesco has no visible ideology, only that they show a fascination for other people who are outspoken and direct; no matter what politics they follow. [11] They express an enjoyment of the aesthetics of decay and the decline of the Western world. [12] They state that when living in a country where you are not allowed to own any nationalism you have a lot to criticize."
Robin Reliant
Thanks for the clarifications Karl. Out of the motley crew you were in cahoots with Ian Reed sounds like the most fun.
ReplyDeleteI still question your motives as being in a band and touring with people ultimately puts a great strain on friendships. Sometimes a middleground can be established for things to work but sometimes circumstances and personalities are just too difficult and relationships sour. I've been there, I know the feeling of being wronged and wanting to get some back. You are in the position that your former associates already carry the modern stigma (second only to paedophilia) of being demonised as fascists. It's a sore spot I think you poke it with a stick to get yours back.
You probably disagree and I know the rest of the hysterical witch finders here will continue to label me and other sceptics as apologists etc. Be that as it may, I wish you the best of luck with your music in spite of the nasty accusations you make. The music will give you a greater reward in the end than being part of the mob mentality bullshit displayed here.
Anonymous (above) plays the game of making things personal, without revealing his/her identity. Karl Blake has itemised countless instances of fascist ideology and action (not least the disgusting use of the term "untermensch" in relation to Roma people by a prominent figure on the scene, but rather than deal directly with these claims, Anonymous cites 'strained friendships'. What, exactly, is he/she 'sceptical' about – the facts as Blake recounts them, or his motives in exposing a growing subculture in which 'subhuman' is regarded as an acceptable epithet?
ReplyDeleteI am neither hysterical, nor a witch hunter with a mob mentality, although it clearly suits Anonymous and his/her fellow apologists to play the victim card. Anything, rather than address the poison unquestionably at the heart of this scene.....
Robin Reliant
It is a little fallacious to suggest that the anonymous poster should reveal his/her identity when most people on this blog don't do that. Blake has been a poster on here before without revealing his identity (I'm 99% sure of this check back to some of the posts in other threads), saying that is wasn't important, and so have many other people posting here. Is Blake recounting the truth is more the point. I think there is some `poison' at the heart of this scene but lets get the facts straight, Blake may be telling the truth but he needs to stop seeing links where there are none e.g the booklet `Satan and its allies...' by the Final Conflict group has nothing to do with Wakeford, in fact they think he is a traitor to the cause - with his public statements - that you think he is hiding behind - they take seriously. So get the facts right and people will take it more seriously than when you present half truths or supposition.
ReplyDeleteSwindon Town Mike said... "It is a little fallacious to suggest that the anonymous poster should reveal his/her identity when most people on this blog don't do that."
ReplyDeleteFine, so long as we are all fans/consumers/onlookers whose observations carry the same amount of weight. 'Anyonymous', however, gives every indication of being a 'fellow traveller' (if not in the literal, 'tour bus' sense) and therefore may have a vested interest in rubbishing Blake's claims.
Anyone with even a passing interest in the established Far Right in this country will acknowledge that internecine warfare and factionalism are their default setting. Luckily for the vast majority of decent people, they're incapable of organising a putsch in a beer hall (even with the unprecedented platform they've been given in recent years.) This is equally true of the lunatic fringe occupied by ITP rags such as Final Conflict, whose intended 'blue collar' appeal was predicated upon painting the esoteric elements as decadent and unworthy of 'true' nationalism.
If Blake is correct in stating that Wakeford had a foot in both camps (and he was. by his own admission) practicing 'magic' whilst selling drugs and acting as security for NF top brass like Ian Anderson) then he was not alone in this rather schizophrenic lifestyle; the likes of Joe Short and Alan Winder saw no incompatibility between street activism and more 'spiritual' pursuits either. For what it's worth, nothing in Blake's account seems outlandish or risible given the monstrous egos that we're discussing.
Robin Reliant
"What, exactly, is he/she 'sceptical' about – the facts as Blake recounts them, or his motives"
ReplyDeleteBoth. I am also sceptical of you, the righteous ones, and your ilk. You can write me off as an apologist, fanboy and what have you. The truth is I don't give two fucks about neofolk, martial or whatever. They can keep on till they drop or wither and die for all I care. I'm much more interested and concerned about the mindset of the ones who assume the right to tell others what to think and do.
hello,
ReplyDeletehas anyone of you clowns ever thought about that this blog could achieve the direct opposite to what it intends to do?
I thought on several occasions, reading all the comments and statements, being called an appologist and liar for putting disclaimers on my pages "oh fuck it, if they do not believe me, I could just use them to promote my music in the way they hate".
free publicity as delivered by the armchair fraction of Marxism, Stalinism, Trotzkism gobshites (who all hate each other btw cos historically they never saw eye to eye).
so, who said what, why and when?
I do not give a shit, not the slightest bit and world serpents "poor sales" where due to embesselment and theft, there are eye witnesses to this... so shut up already and face it, who gives a damn if it was Blake who got the piss taken of or Reed.
go home, have sex and some drugs to feel dangerously left wing and hippie and all right on...
oh and if you want something to look at and maybe over analyse then watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSUeIXWW8D4
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xICLIpjsX40
then start ripping my band name to shreds... there is not such thing as bad publicity.
thank you everyone
and please stop censoring my comments out!
ReplyDeletesoooooo did anyone else notice that Mr. Sunlight above confesses to the fact that Der Blutarsch utilized a "Nazi" image?
ReplyDeleteBREAKTHROUGH!
i don't even think Boyd Rice himself, in all his sociopathic tail-chasing, has ever quite admitted to same...
so Mr. Sunshine thinks he is innocent of any of the charges leveled because he was merely a cynical businessman, dressing as a Nazi on stage to make his "fortune" (BTW Sunshine, are you really set up for life with your Der Blutarsch residuals? am I naive to take this with a grain of salt? probably so...is it too late to buy stock?), never mind the fact that he was playing to and stimulating/promoting a hateful, politically backward community all the while.
It's OK, because might is right!
Bah, it's clearer than ever to me that this lot are just an uninteresting bunch of not-so-closet middle-aged racists, too self-congratulatory to be of much political economy but still worth the utmost avoidance by anyone with any decency, non-white friends, etc.
Thanks for your candor, Sunshine!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeletewhat? Albin Julius used Nazi imageries? What the hell..this is totally NEW to me....that he didn´t use any controversary images since at least 7 years might be new to you...oups..althoug I am afraid "he did it again": http://www.derblutharschandtheinfinitechurchoftheleadinghand.com/temple451/gallery/Thewildones1.gif
ReplyDeleteAlbin Julius attempts to convince us that his involvement with fascism was ten years ago, and anyway it was no more than a bit of a laugh and a quick way to get idiots to part with their money so he could retire to his Schloss in the forest and drive his expensive sports car around with a knowing grin on his face. But even the idiots know this is not true.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is he released a split 7 inch with well-known Italian fascist band Sottofasciasemplice less than three years ago, so if he really wants to hide his true political position he is not doing very well.
As for trying to pass himself off as some ridiculous new age hippy, and telling us all we need to learn how to love, don't make me laugh. If you promote far-right politics, support fascists like Jorg Haider and complain about immigration and support the racialist Nouvelle Droite movement in Europe, no one is going to believe you for a second when you suddenly try and come over all Haight Ashbury.
Keep up the good work here.
Here is a post from anarchist webite Infoshop which explains why people still distrust Albin Julius and believe him to be a neo-nazi, albeit one who like Tony Wakeford has got bored of having to defend the indefensible and so now denies it (despite releasing and selling bands like Derniere Volente on his label Hau Ruck, which has to this day a Hitler youth drummer boy as its logo). Der Blutharsch still employ the Iron Cross as their logo.
ReplyDelete(From Infoshop)
Der Blutharsch
Der Blutharsch (a synonym for "dried blood") is an Austrian white power music act headed by Albin Julius in 1997, with the assistance of Death in June leader Douglas Pierce. The band takes great pride in their use of fascist symbols, and is well known for its use of Nazi imagery. Der Blutharsch attracts neo-Nazi's and right wing extremists across Europe.
In March 2003, a concert in Clausnitz, Germany was cancelled by the German government. In a statement released by the security police concluded that Der Blutharsch have "right wing extremist tendencies."
(The statement has significant weight in Germany, given the legal impermissibility of such extremism.)
Those tendencies are evident in the packaging and music of the band. The Der Blutharsch logo is a symbol with a Sig-rune, like the Waffen-SS used. Their website also relies on the Nazi Iron Cross and the logo of the Hitler Youth. The covers of their albums are also adorned with Nazi art. The cover of the CD "Der Sieg des Lichtes ist des Lebens Heil!"
(The triumph of light is the life's Heil) is a part of a picture about the Varus battle, painted by the Nazi painter Werner Peiner. The cover of the CD "The pleasures received in Pain" is a reprint of the painting "Defense eastern Einfdle" by Nazi artist Ferdinand Staeger. Their songs also sample lyrics from the Hitler Youth marching anthem "Forward!" and other speeches and marches. The EP "Adesso viene IL bell" even contains eight songs from Italian fascism.
On a live-video, published in 1999, named "Gold gab ich für Eisen" (I gave gold for iron) of the second tour, a "Finnish version of Lili Marleen, a popular song in Germany during World War II, was played (called "Lisa Pien"). The song was dedicated to the Europäische Freiwillige der Waffen SS and Marsch des Sturmatillerie European volunteers of the Waffen SS march of the storm artillery. The second tour was together with Death in June. At the end of the video, the second singer Wilhelm Herich shouted "Free Pinochet".
I don't hear Albin Julius or Tony Wakeford coming out AGAINST fascism, and until they do (loudly and regularly) I won't believe a word they say on the subject.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI remember "psychadelic musician" Charles Manson. He was pretty uncool racially.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.derblutharschandtheinfinitechurchoftheleadinghand.com/temple451/gallery/Thewildones1.gif
ReplyDeleteI have the impression Mr Julius gives a shit about all this...
You guys should rather find arguments against the openly fascist "avant-garde" of Casa Pound (a cultural organisation and network of squats lead by the singer of ZetaZeroAlpha) in Italy. Hitting some middle-aged hypocrites of the goth subculture won't hide the fact that antifascists already lost the intellectual war on all levels. I don't say that people on this blog are bigots but most antifas are. The future looks pretty much neo-fascist, get ready for it.
ReplyDelete- an ex DIY HC punk / ultra-left / post-situationist person gone apolitical.
just a quick one - he said, fearing it may be anything but....
ReplyDeletefirstly - it was hardly a friendship of any description I had with any of those people on that tour - apart from murphy - [murphy was an exception as I saw not much of but a bit more of him in the early to mid 2000s] - I put self-interest over scruples in the case of that tour , i will admit, when I chose to do it - I was in a state of grievance with World Serpent and my main topic of conversation was about them for the first period.
Yes, Albin - Klaus, thank you - by all means speak to him about what I reported him to have said - he seemed to feel - and this was something I was i agreement with at the time - that your ego was out of control - you having managed to become part of Death In June - obviously - its also possible that the sheer insufferable boorishness of Pearce could have helped him feel this way - being told that all of us should be Dougs roadies and clear away Dougs equipment for him after the DIJ gig - because "I don't want to be egotistical but I'M THE REASON WHY YOU ARE ALL HERE " and he should be talking to all his fans" - but i cannot remember if Klaus said this before or after doug came out with this crap. If you remember, I ceased to talk to Doug after his outburst. Admittedly, Klaus seemed to get over his annoyance later on - if you remember we stayed at his flat - i think it was - and ian[?] and I were there because you both couldn't stand the smell of Boyd Rice who wore his leather outfit continuously [it didn't notice in the van or out and about - but according to you and Klaus when he took it off it was entirely a different matter].
So, Albin - you did it merely for the fans - the public show - I seem to remember your flat before we left to go on tour being - how can I say, interestingly decorated, with flags and stuff - perhaps you had open days for the public to show how out and out through and through nazi you were - even in private? and perhaps the folks at World Serpent were lying when they told the story of you getting drunk at an Amon Duul II gig in London and you getting angry and shouting about the black bouncers that the club employed - wondering out loud and abusively the reason for their employment.
This didn't stop World Serpent dealing with you though, it was your "Moon lay Hidden Beneath a Cloud" project at the time - probably at the same time or after that World Serpnt showed me the Dog Head Swastika lp of DIJ and when I asked them why they were releasing it said "he [meaning doug] pays your wages" - which was absolute crap - because the only money I ever received from them was from my own releases. Interesting how they realised what Doug really was when whatever eventually soured between them beyond repair.
But back to you, Mr. Julius - poor Sunlight Saxon must have been really ill - and really uninformed. I remember also some choice racist epithets being used as insults betwixt you and Doug when you eventually fell out.Do you think people will just forgive and forget the shit you came out with? and I also have seen your comments about the Zetzeroalpha bunch - possibly in 2007 but I cannot swear to that - I'LL HAVE TO HAVE A LOOK TO SEE IF ITS STILL ABOUT..
You see Albin - I will not lie - i've had enough of a twat like Wakeford either lying or otherwise manipulating the truth to join him in his behaviour.
karl again - part two - - Swindon Town Mike said -
ReplyDelete"Blake may be telling the truth but he needs to stop seeing links where there are none e.g the booklet `Satan and its allies...' by the Final Conflict group has nothing to do with Wakeford, in fact they think he is a traitor to the cause - with his public statements - that you think he is hiding behind - they take seriously. So get the facts right and people will take it more seriously than when you present half truths or supposition".
I agree that what I posited was mere supposition
I said - "Curiously, I noted in the booklet you mentioned [Satan etc.] that Sol Invictus were mentioned - but in no depth whatsoever - merely as a link to get to the subject of Ian Read .... I suspect, therefore, that Wakeeford keeps a foot in many camps rather than taking sides: one camp being the nazi who wrote the booklet "Satan etc....which incidently does supply valuable info on the "enemy".
I agree that many of the stormfront types - who incline to 'straight ahead, no-nonsense nationalism' and the Final Conflict bunch are arbiters of the same BUT lets not oversimplify this - this is the quote from "SATANISM AND ITS ALLIES - the Nationalism Movement Under Attack" that I partially based my IDEA on - I did not present it as FACT - but in the absence of information and all of the facts - at times conjecture is what is needed to get at the truth -
"Also on sale [by Michael Moynihan through his Storm outlet] is Fire and Ice materials, whose lead singer, Ian Read, is a known satanist. A former [this previous word in italics, for some reason] member of the pagan group, Sol Invictus, he is now also editor of 'Chaos International'. The same Ian Read, we are told by a pagan contact, is extremely unpopular in certain Odinist circles because he has been pushing 'chaos magic' and voodoo!"
If you read the above passage - and don't wander why the word was in italics - and who the 'pagan contact' was - and - also - I am aware of Wakeford making noises about moving to the Isle of Wight - and one of the oft-repeated telephone numbers in Final Conflict is a Isle Of Wight number - also - I rememember Wakeford relating a tale of how Ian Read was brought to tears at a party by Odinist friends of Wakeford - Wakeford maintained a friendship with the leader of the Odinic Rite, Heimgeist at least into the early 2000s as He appeared on an album of Wakefords and Matt Howden. I think it is fair and not too outlandish to think that its possible that Wakeford is the 'pagan contact' listed above; I DON'T KNOW IF HE IS OR NOT [I capitalise to make it clear that I am not presenting this as actual fact - merely what I consider not to be a unlikelyhood].But I agree with you that a lot of the Final Conflict bunch would consider Wakeford an enemy - but obviously the writer of said booklet still thought it ok to have 'pagan contacts'..."Where there is uncertainty, the weeds of conjecture will sprout" and weeds are merely flowers that some people don't want...but others will see them as beneficial....
Until the whole truth comes out about all this - which I fear will be never, we'll just have to make do and mend - and I think the burden of truth should lay on Wakefords shoulders - but hes just so untrustworthy, slippery and downright lying that he cannot be trusted to deliver.
damn - I hate being forgetful - yes, I have been to this site on previous occasions - and delighted in going under different names - I do wish that anonymous who are legion would get off their high horses and test their imagination for even the shortest of times and call themselves something and stick to it when they want that persona to say something again [such as, for instance - "schoolgirl scratches her knee" - see - i look out of the window and there is an instant suggestion for a name - it makes following threads and replying much easier and takes the heat off the plants..."anonymous loves me they love me not they love me" ad nauseum....
ReplyDeleteoh, and 'psychedelic' is how itss spelt, people - an annoying word - like med - evil - not surprising they invented 'nazi' or 'fascist' to replace it - so much easier - but a little innacurate.
karl
Damn Imposter!
ReplyDelete"for instance - 'schoolgirl scratches her knee' - see - i look out of the window and there is an instant suggestion for a name"
ReplyDeleteYou dirty sod!
@ Anonymous:
ReplyDelete1. "You guys should rather find arguments against the openly fascist "avant-garde" of Casa Pound (a cultural organisation and network of squats lead by the singer of ZetaZeroAlpha) in Italy."
2. "The future looks pretty much neo-fascist, get ready for it."
3. "- an ex DIY HC punk / ultra-left / post-situationist person gone apolitical."
1. I agree. Casa Pound are hardcore, and a classic example of fascists
co-opting traditional counter-culture territory to spread their propaganda.
2. Certainly that is more possible now than any time since the nineteen thirties. I assume that is why Strelnikov set up this blog.
3. Mmm. "apolitical" are you? Round these parts that is generally understood as crypto-fascist. It's time you sat down and had a long hard think and then you can tell us why (I presume) you think that a "neo-fascist" future would be a good thing. I'm just dying to know.
I agree about, eg., Casa Pound. This blog exists to address a small, specialist backwater of sub/crypto-fascist propaganda, because I think it important (and easier) to strangle these things at birth rather than wait.
ReplyDeleteThat's why I don't take seriously the routine comments about how the pro-fascist elements of the neo-folk / martial / etc subculture represent no real threat. My attitude is: great - let's keep it that way.
Int he meantime, here's a good article about Casa Pound
"Mmm. "apolitical" are you? Round these parts that is generally understood as crypto-fascist. It's time you sat down and had a long hard think and then you can tell us why (I presume) you think that a "neo-fascist" future would be a good thing. I'm just dying to know"
ReplyDeleteIn other words, if you're not with us you are against us. Is this the kind of extremist lunacy you want to promote with this blog Strelnikov?
"In other words, if you're not with us you are against us"
ReplyDeleteEr - 'Jean-Louis Beaudry' neither said nor implied that. He pointed out that you personally seemed to welcome a neo-Fascist future. As the point of this blog is to oppose fascism, I'm guessing that most people will already have surmised that I don't consider ant-fascism to be a form of extremism.
Incidentally, it has often struck me as typically hypocritical and thick-headed that fans of these crypto-fascist artists will one minute justify their work by saying that they are rebelling against "the conformist views of the vast majority of people" regarding fascism (or some such banal idea)... then argue just ten minutes later that anti-fascism represents some sort of extremist philosophy.
But I suppose such idiocy does rather go with the territory.
I have personally welcomed nothing of the sort. As little as I welcome you and your gang of brainwashed fringe lunatics. As I have pointed out before, although you refused to publish it, I couldn't care less about neofolk or the people involved. I'm much more interested in the hypocrisy of you and your righteous lot who so ready to tell everyone what to like and not to like.
ReplyDelete@ Anonymous.
ReplyDelete"Neo-fascist" future? I don't hear your answer. Cat got your tongue?
...to lower the standard yet again - I merely looked out of the window and reported what I saw - it could have been "woman cleans up after her dog messes the pavement" or "postman delivers mail: drops elastic bands"
ReplyDeleteI merely report the truth and I am almbasted for it - seems like this echoes this sites existance!
oh, for gods sake post the bloody Casa Pound thingy - and close this! then I can have the last word - nnyahhhhhh!
@Anonymous: "the hypocrisy of you and your righteous lot who so ready to tell everyone what to like and not to like."
ReplyDeleteI don't give a fuck about what people 'like'. You are confusing political anti-fascism with some sort of juvenile notion about how it is terrible to express or fight for a point of view.
I don't oppose fascists because they have opinions I disagree with; I oppose them because they have fascist opinions that encourage the spread of fascist ideas. The same, I'm sure, goes for most people who read this blog. Perhaps it's time for you to leave the comfortable nursery of teenage libertarianism, and start to think instead about the real world, in which it matters a great deal whether fascism is allowed to prosper. In other words, perhaps you should start to take ideas seriously, rather than posturing.
"although you refused to publish it"
As you are posting anonymously, I can't tell which comment of yours I have refused to publish - but I suspect that it may be a recent comment that included links to two laughably dreadful 'me too' clips of 'industrial' music, complete with default video filters, totally unoriginal 'militaristic' images, and devoid of any merit or ideas whatsoever. I omitted to publish the links because the content of the videos were of no conceivable interest to anyone, whether as music lovers or as anti-fascists. Or was that someone else?
@Jean-Louis Beaudry
ReplyDeleteI never said a neo-fascist future would be a good thing, it just appears to me that they're on their way to a sort of cultural hegemony and "coolness" just like leftism did back when it was actually relevant. It's like the world shifted around the political poles and what was once legitimate is now a part of the opression. The manichean way you reacted ("apolitical=crypto-fascist") shows you're the one with an alienated-mind. Pasolini once said that if fascism ever comes back, it will be called anti-fascism.
Actually what I'd like to hear is arguments, since the far-right uses a lot of truth and fact, while everything facing it is blatant hypocrisy and delusion. Why shouldn't I be allowed to be the inquisitor and ask you what exactly is wrong with fascism, how much of a threat it is today and why ? I just don't believe in essentialism and history repeating itself. Maybe I'm just a crypto-fascist by honestly I won't even admit to myself. If some authoritarian opression filled with a load of stupid militarist, heroic and Evolian crap gets into power, I'm as much fucked as you. But you know very well that is not the current face of the Empire, and it will never grow back to this older form.
- ex-punk whatever
I'd also like to add to following, which I'm sure will explicit what i said earlier and is at the core of all subjects covered on this blog:
ReplyDeleteThe current state of my "ideological" or "cultural" interests turn around different cores of Tradition. To discuss such topics often mean being familiar with René Guénon, though I'm very reluctant to a lot of his ideas and even more to the ones that came after him. And I still draw a line between him and Evola, since Evola looks like a moronic caricature of Guénon. Anyway, once you admit a certain number of things on the metaphysical level you'll reject all the values that make the occidental world we live in. And that can look like a bit more "to the right" on the spectrum.
Even people like Coil who built themselves a sort of left-wing-libertarian-occultism body of work, admitted the existence of a core of Tradition and the importance of it's transmission.
Obviously, I think that people like William Burroughs and Coil, who kind of wrapped spirituality in homoerotic transgression and libertarism, are more interesting than the ones mentioned on this blog, though they are all "related", which makes matters more complicated. My theory is that, maybe the problem is the current absence of a sort of appealing, progressive-oriented esotericism in art, or anywhere. This and the hypocrisy everywhere creates a gap, which is filled by swastikas and the übermensch. That's why the radical left should die once and for all, as long as it is the enemy of truth and spirituality, and see if it can reborn as a truely progressive force. Fascism on the other hand is constantly updated, that's why it has a future, and that would be good to have something relevant to face it. Not to face it actually, because you become exactly what you fight. Rather to REDEEM it.
When I'm asking what is wrong with fascism, I really mean it. This question has to be updated with something better than the "petit-bourgeois réactionnaire" or "racist" insults : both of these can equally be thrown back at you antifas, in an even more legitimate way.
-ex-punk whatever
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ReplyDelete..... and YOU"RE the upholder of 'truth and spirituality', are you? Just another navel-gazer who's lucky enough never to have had his 'metaphysical' yearnings met by reality.
ReplyDelete"You become exactly what you fight", do you? Get out of your bedsit, pal, and see a bit of the world – or you could start with your local community, assuming you have the necessary social skills. What you characterise as 'leftism' is just ordinary people making the best of things- on a far lower plane than yours, obviously.
You are proving ex-punk's point exactly Sacha C.
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ReplyDelete@ 'ex-punk': – and William Burroughs would be spinning in his grave to read your gross misappropriation.
ReplyDeleteConcerning Coil, one point has to be made though. In later interviews Sleazy has definitely made clear that he obejected to Rice's ludicrous ideas and before anybody yells "dictatorship of political correctness" he simply pointed out that his annoyance about Rice had more to do with what he called "common sense" and less with being pc and I think you don't even have to be particularly pc or leftwing or whatever to find his appearance on the Metzger-show and a number of other things (which can hardly be considered "pranks" as some of his defenders reel off ad nauseam).
ReplyDeleteNevertheless,it clearly must be said that this aversion to Rice was not always that obvious. He is thanked on the Black Light District-album which was released in 1996 (i.e. at a time when Rice's rants must clearly have reached the shores of England) and as late as 2004 John Balance gave an interview to Michael Moyniham for the journal "Tyr". That doesn't make Coil in any way fellow travellers and in my eyes that doesn't do anything to harm Coil's reputation. It just shows that sometimes things are not as simple as they seem to be.
Coil never got on any high horses. Great band!
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ReplyDeleteSiouxsie and the Banshees wore swastika armbands but she criticised Morrissey for his 'nationalist' views.
ReplyDeleteKilling Joke have been labled by the music press as 'fascist' . Their lead singer Jeremy 'Jaz' Coleman gave incendiary interviews saying "Black and gay music should be put in the gas chamber. Hitler was misunderstood for dealing with the Gypsy problem.". He described himself as "part-English, part-high caste Aryan Indian". The drummer Paul Ferguson stated "Killing Joke stand for humane fascism". KJ are influenced by the infamous occultist Aleister Crowley who included racist, anti-Semitic and pro-fascist, pro-Nazi views in his books. See the discussion on the Lashtal website entitled 'Aleister Crowley and Magical Fascism".
Killing Joke = Great band!
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ReplyDeleteHow would that explain Killing Joke playing dub reggae then?
ReplyDeletemore to the point, do you think there is really any great point in dissecting what certain individuals/acts who are clearly NOT fascist/racist said approx 30 years ago?
ReplyDeleteWho next? Bowie?
Speaking of Reggae, there's a genre with its own set problems. Homophobia and misogyny being two prominent features. What is the blog owners stance on that?
ReplyDeleteThe Jaz Coleman comments were in New Musical Express or Sounds in the 80s, the Paul Ferguson's comments were in Zig Zag, also in the 80s (Google search 'Killing Joke Fascist?' for the Zig Zag article and Wikipedia entry). To be fair to Killing Joke though bass guitarist Youth, criticised Nazism in a recent Terrorizer article.
ReplyDeleteAnonymopus.
ReplyDeleteWell, you are as stupid as I thought you were. What is wrong with fascism? Are you serious? OK, what is right with racism? What is right about ultra-nationalist far-right authoritarianism that sanctions state terror, imprisonment and murder, and espouses a rigid racial hierarchy, because THAT is what we are talking about? It doesn't matter if we are talking about Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet or any other fascist dictatorship the end result is the same. Defend it if you want, but you only expose yourself as a dangerous moron. Please explain to me why these things are good. In fact don't bother, because you can't.
Killing Joke's comments can probably be explained by their copious use of drugs, and a punk attitude/ desire to shock.
ReplyDeleteI have heard of this blog before but never really looked at it. But a friend told me last night that I'm mentioned by name, so I had a look today. I find this whole thing deeply frustrating; I'll be playing with Sol Invictus at the upcoming gig. Does this make me a fascist apologist of some kind? I really don't think so. My own political views are left-wing, libertarian ones. I have never worn, or has any interest in, WWII imagery of any sort (I find it rather boring) but I have no objection to other people's choice of clothing. I enjoy playing music with the likes of Sol Invictus, Andrew King, etc. but if I saw or heard any evidence of racist views from them I would not do so.
ReplyDeleteOn another note, it's nice to see Karl on here; I haven't heard from him for many years and Karl, if you're reading this, i hope you're well. I always enjoyed your music with Lemon Kittens and SHP and thanks, I think (!), for introducing me to the 'neo-folk' (I hate that term) world back in 1999.
Lloyd James
Back in the 80s one of Killing Joke's gigs in Glasgow was banned, when they used a Nazi recruitment poster to promote it. Some members of the group wore swastika badges and T-shirts (like Sid Viscous did).
ReplyDeleteJaz Coleman also gave interviews to Melody Maker which today might today be termed 'politically incorrect'. On another occasion when the MM slagged him off, he poured a bag of liver,blood and maggots over their reception desk!
I don't think any of KJ's drink-fuelled antics has harmed their career. They recently played to a packed out venue in London back in April 2011.
I might attend this 'Neofolk/Industrial' concert at the Slimelight, just to see what all the fuss is about, and to make up my own mind whether it is fair to label them 'fascist' or not.
@Lloyd James says: "I enjoy playing music with the likes of Sol Invictus, Andrew King, etc. but if I saw or heard any evidence of racist views from them I would not do so."
ReplyDeleteMay I direct hims to the paragraph at the top of this thread, which reads:
"Andrew King, long-time collaborator with Wakeford and member of Sol Invictus, recently recorded a virulently racist version of David E. Williams' song 'Wotan Rains on a Plutocrat Parade' under the name Second Amendment with its lyrics; "monkey men... banging on the bongo drum, I'll pick them off one by one... you can kill the Aryan body but you can't kill the Aryan soul", and featuring sample declaring Hitler as the second coming."
This version is available to view on Youtube.
It also helps to know the people involved personally — I do and they are not "fascist". Lloyd James has already pointed this out above. For all the good that it'll do — Characters involved with this web-blog actually advance the potty notion that some of these "neo-folkers" meet secretly with dodgy political activists in order to advance some supposed neo-fascist "cultural war" of influence. This is utter drivel. A pathetic fantasy. And to top it all off, the bile-spewing bloggers in question use the kind of language to smear their supposed "opponents" that you would find in Streicher's Der Stürmer.
ReplyDelete@Home Front: "Characters involved with this web-blog actually advance the potty notion that some of these "neo-folkers" meet secretly with dodgy political activists"
ReplyDeleteCould you give a single example of this? Perhaps you could try sticking to the facts. The criticisms of them on this blog center around the known activities, statements, etc., of the people involved. Of course, people like you prefer to talk bollocks about 'spewing bile' and so on because you haven't the wits or the inclination to respond to rational arguments.
It's interesting to know that you have been studying Streicher's work, though.
Home Front says: "Characters involved with this web-blog actually advance the potty notion that some of these "neo-folkers" meet secretly with dodgy political activists in order to advance some supposed neo-fascist "cultural war" of influence"
ReplyDeleteY'mean like Troy Southgate of "neo-classical" stage-botherers H.E.R.R. meeting with National Anarchist/New Right organiser/activist....Troy Southgate? Or the aforementioned Andrew King contributing a "racialist" cover version to a compilation CD which specifically involved racial separatists (see elsewhere on this site for details)? Or Douglas Pearce's recent cheery comments about how Aboriginals should be treated in his current homeland ("European" South Australia)?
Nothing to see here at all, no siree...gosh, I must be one of those "fascist anti-fascists" I'm always hearing about, oppressing those who want to tell the "truth" on race, culture etc? Fancy that! And you "know them" too - maybe they could pop along here and engage with the arguments, instead of hiding behind their "comrades" like a bunch of cowards? Just a thought, like...